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Water Pump Leak? Cam belts n all...???

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    Posted: 01 Jul 16 at 00:55
 Hi Folks!
Tracing a coolant leak - appears to be from the water pump. Can't be sure yet as it's behind the covers.
10mnths ago stripped nearly all off to check belts & pump with a truck mechanic. All looked good so didn't go all the way to replacing belt and pump. Took the best part of a day.
Is there an easier way to get to check the pump?
I don't have the special tools either. (crank locking tool, tensioner puller)
I read someone got the cam belt tensioner/idler off with a screwdriver? Do-able or is that a clear botch job?
I also read that you don't need the locking tool if you use an impact wrench with enough torque. Is that so or will things move as I'd assume?
I'd need to remove everything from the front just to get to the pump behind the backing plate including header tank, fan/cowling/ducts, alt belt, PAS belt, vibration damper, cam belt, tensioner/idler, both cam & crank pulleys/sprockets. Right so far? I don't want to just bend the backing plate out the way (sorry Madra).
Will I need to re-time the fuel pump aswell or will locking the front crank be enough?
So anyone with experience of doing all this with the ACL please help!
Got mi knickers in a twist just thinking about it....

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 16 at 16:20
Managed to take a closer look at the water pump by simply unclipping & removing the top part of the toothed belt guard and using a vanity mirror I spotted the point of this terrible little leak:



There's a little drain hole next to the toothed sprocket of the pump and it's dripping away from there.
Can anyone shed some light on why it's leaking from the drain hole and does it mean I'll need to replace the pump?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jul 16 at 20:27
So after some more reading it's apparent this water pump will need replacing and the leak must be a sign of inner seal failure leading eventually to bearing failure and all our nightmares of engine failure consequences.
Here's a good read for anyone interested in VW water pump failures.
http://www.blauparts.com/vw_water_pump_replacement/bad_vw_water_pump_leak_noise.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LTCamper89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 16 at 17:29
It seems you are having a great weekend, just sorry I cannot help out. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robbydoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 09:05
Yes if water is coming from the drain hole it means either the inner seal is failing or the bearings are failing and causing the main shaft to pull to the side away from the seal, either way do not drive your van and change as a matter of urgency.
 
It would make sense to exchange the timing belt and tensioner also and for the money involved I would also change the other belts in that area as you will need to take them off anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 10:49
Yep, a tiny leak can lead to whole lotta damage.
Spent most of yesterday tearing down that front end after having finally figured setting TDC

then wrestling the hoses on the expansion tank and the fan cowling cover,




destroying my favourite 8mm allen key to make a socket for the inner hex bolt on the fan



I finally got to the flange on the damper.



Now I'm scratching my head trying to figure how to get that flange off so back to Madra's post think...

Still gotta make the crank locking tool but judging how heavy it was when attempting to set TDC (nothing budged) it's probably unneccessary.

Incindentally the fan which is on my diesel ACL engine is marked yellow coded for the petrol DL engine!
Odd...

I'll need tips on removing this Cam Sprocket so I can get the backing plate off:


Do I remove it with the crank locked? What if it moves? Do I need to lock the fuel pump?

Here's the replacement tension roller:



and here's the replacement relay roller:



and the water pump:




Edited by Monster LT - 05 Jul 16 at 10:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 11:22
Found the tip for the damper flange from Hugo151 on Madras post:
the front plate of the damper pulley can easily be forced off by screwing a long m10 bolt through till it hits the head of the "BIG ONE ", just keep turning till it pops off. i wouldn't worry about the BIG ONE being that tight, mine wasn't, & like someone else said , just do it up as tight as you can if your torque wrench doesn't  go that high.

http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/cambelt-info_topic76225_page1.html?KW=cam+belt+info

and it's off...

 

The inner hex bolts underneath weren't as easy though.

So I sacrificed another allen key (6mm) to fit in socket and get 'em out but the alen key ended up rounded off and tortioned 45 degrees... 


Luckily I remember I had a 6mm hex in a driver bit set. That did the trick and with a snap of thread lock breaking they were off...


Now to simply loosen the PAS & Altenator belts and slip 'em off. Easy right? No such luck....
Both Power Steering Pump & Alternator adjusted to the point that they cannot move any more and still the belts won't move....




Scratching my head again for a solution. Thinking to just work around them while I take off the vibration damper or get the heatgun out and warm'em up a bit but I'm a bit cautious as that may weaken them. We replaced 'em only 10mnths ago at the truckers place and I don't remember them being so f'in tight going on.Angry
Any tips at this point are very welcome.


Edited by Monster LT - 06 Jul 16 at 00:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 16 at 22:30
Not sure what you mean, Both Power Steering Pump & Altenator adjusted to the point that they cannot move any more and still the belts won't move... Why heat?

Also new manuals uploaded today, might cast some light on the problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 00:10
Hi Andy,
Alternator tension adjusting bolt is adjusted as far as it will go as can be seen in last photo I added. Alternator is now contacting it's bracket above and can't move any further as can be seen in 2nd from last photo I added.
Power steering pump is in same situation against it's bracket and adjusting bolts loosened to max.
Still not enough slack in either belt to remove normally.
Heat is often used to soften rubber to gain a little more stretch from v-belts when fitting. Submerging the belt in hot wtater often does the trick however can't do hot water if belt is on. Heat gun could end up damaging belts and as they are nearly new I want to avoid that.




Edited by Monster LT - 06 Jul 16 at 00:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 12:19
Ok I understand now. (Link to new Manuals done btw)

What you need is the equivalent of a tyre iron, once the belt is started on the edge of the pulley a turn of the crankshaft will roll it off. This is probably how they got it on.

Only other options I can think of are:-

Remove main bolt on alternator.
Cut belt, make sure new is a fraction longer to ease fitting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 12:22
Tried the old belts that we removed 10 months ago for size and the alt belt goes on easy so is a lot looser than the current one I'm struggling to get off still... so I'll probably leave 'em on till the vibration damper comes off. Unhappy
Tried to remove the center bolt on the vibration damper but the crank n cam started to move! Sods law! Couldn't get it to budge the other day and was hoping to get away without making a locking tool but looks like I'll be having to make one now...Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndyT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 13:22
Haven't got time to search at the moment, but I'm sure someone on the forum has done this with a long bar of some kind.
Try an advanced search for old posts, could save you time and money.
Good luck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jul 16 at 17:26
Ah, Thanks AndyT but I meant that a few days ago I was having difficulty turning over the engine by hand to find TDC.
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/turn-over-by-hand-tdc_topic91707.html
It wouldn't budge then so I thought I'd have a go at taking off the big center bolt on the crank pulley since everything seemed solid but when I tried to take the center bolt off the engine began to "turned over" so I made a tool to lock the crank.

Here it is attached to the vibration damper:





And here are some after shots...









Actually the "big one" was easy as pie.... never 460Nm.


Edited by Monster LT - 06 Jul 16 at 18:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LTCamper89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 20:21
Handy Germans

Power steering belts can be different lengths though the alternator belt seems to be 800km.

Icky has had the same problem regarding belt length, possibly due to a slightly longer one being fitted previously, and so running out of adjustment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jul 16 at 17:52
Thanks LTCamper89.
The original VW ones that came off 10mnths ago were 12.5x800 for the PAS and 10x800 for the Alternator.
The ones I had  difficulty removing were 13x800 for the PAS and 10x800 for the alt. When I measured old & newer to compare the only difference was the old alt belt was 5mm longer, probably stretched due to age.
Anyway I'm planning to cheat from now on... I've ordered a 13x825 for the PAS which was the most difficult to remove and a 10x813 for the Alt. Hopefully these will go on and off much easier.
The truck mechanic that put 'em on must've had hands of steel otherwise can't think of why there may be such a difference this time around.

The water pump that came off is the original with a '92 stamp on it so never changed and is f'**kd. It's drive sprocket has a rubbery feel and squeaks when turned so I'm guessing the internal o-ring has got out of place and is now stuck. Couldn't tell until the cam belt came off so glad I spotted that little leak.
 
New pump next to old that retired after 23years and less than 30,000kms of service.



Edited by Monster LT - 09 Jan 20 at 15:51
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Job done finally and a few more hiccups on the way....

The Febi 22206 water pump I had been sent was the wrong fitment. Didn't spot the difference until I'd already put it on  attempting to fit the cam belt which seemed too short to go on even though it was the same spec as the old one... then I thought to check the number off teeth on it;s drive sprocket and realised the new pump had 2 extra teeth! Duh! 20 teeth instead of 18, so I had to disassemble it and find a pump that fitted. At first wasn't easy. Some parts sellers recomended to change cam sprocket! No ef'in way! Other sellers (TPS) were just plain rude to me for asking how many teeth the bloody pump's drive spocket had. VW Vans were no help either as there was no info on teeth for the part they had listed and parts were now obsolete so told me to get aftermarket. Finally had success after calling some friendly local motor factors who managed to find me 18 tooth pumps. After a shop around I got one and it was near exact copy of the original and cheap as chips ( + a large cod).





In the meantime I'd snapped off the M6 thread of the spacer bolt in the head. Easy fix if you have a left hand drill bit of smaller than 6mm diameter... but I didn't, so needed to wait for one to be delivered as they are not easy to come by.... nor is a replacement spacer bolt so needed to improvise. I used some rod connectors threaded onto a M6 screw, ground it down to the length of the original and fitted that until the correct part turns up.

I replaced the pain in the ass belts with longer ones  and found with the alt belt only 13mm longer still was difficult to get on and I had to adjust it to max to get it tight enough. The PAS belt was really loose going on and adjusted to max to tighten correctly so I'd say a 813mm would've been better than the 825mm I'm using but it works.
 

So after a few more hrs of work the Monster was back up n running well.

In hindsight I think I could've  removed the water pump by just removing the cam covers even though working space is compromised, draining the radiator, removing back plate bolts and cam belt tensioner and half removing cam belt, then remove water pump (getting ready for the splash) and bend the backplate enough to wiggle out the old pump and wiggle in the new one, carefully put it all back together and hope for the best. Much quicker - less stress n bullshizzle.



Edited by Monster LT - 20 Jul 16 at 00:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 19 at 11:34
Originally posted by Monster LT Monster LT wrote:

 I read someone got the cam belt tensioner/idler off with a screwdriver? Do-able or is that a clear botch job?

Hey Monster LT did you do it with a screwdriver? What was your experience?

I changed my timing belt tensioner and pulley 6 months ago and now my belt is way off centre and starting to deteriorate on the cam/crank side... must be rubbing somewhere.

I did the job with a mechanic who assured me it was fine to take out the tensioner with a screwdriver.

Now I've got to replace the belt & try and work out why it was so off centre. I'm worried that we damaged the thread of the securing screw of the tensioner when we took it out.

Only noticed it yesturday so it's still under investigation but would be good to know if you had similar problems. Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 19 at 20:19
Yeah. Was very simple. Used an allen key to shift the tensioner and undid the nut. You should be able to see any damage to that bolt or the tensioner. Just be careful not to over torque it - 10Nm i think, very low anyway. If you have feked it the you can easily make a new one with an M8 nut + bolt and some thread lock. Reasons your belt may be damaged? Have you checked the cam pully, crank pulley & water pump are rotating true? Is the waterpump moving freely? Have someone turn it over slowly by hand and check. Is every thing clean around the crank pulley? No debris or gunk? It may be as simple as the bottom cover not being fitted back on correctly. It's a bit fiddly and needs to fit under the top cover if memory serves me, so maybe catching the belt a little. Make sure also the water pump and belt are correct. I ended up with the wrong pump, too many teeth / bigger pulley as I posted above). None of the parts sellers would offer the correct pump when I searched by vehicle / reg. I needed to get one for a T4. Have you got some photos of the damage?
From your post www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/timing-marks-not-lined-up_topic94316.html sounds like you skipped some teeth too. Why did the fuelpump belt break in the first place?


Edited by Monster LT - 09 Dec 19 at 20:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Junk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 13:45
Originally posted by Monster LT Monster LT wrote:

Have you got some photos of the damage? 

Havent got a camera handy but its a little nick in the engine side of the belt.

It was making a horrible sweak noise when I turned it by hand (not audible when the engine was running) but it was impossible to tell where it was coming from.

Changed all the belts, tensioners, water pump and have a few theories of where it was rubbing or why it might not have been straight:

-Most likely, the little bit of wire which hooks the tensioner onto the engine was rubbing on the belt (picture below). Looked like it was touching the belt a bit, and would explain the sweaking noise when turning the engine by hand. Problem is, theres a few mm give on that wire even when its put in properly. The new one isnt touching the belt but im worried it might move over again over time, as it's still got give. I'll have to keep checking it.

-The metal plate which sepates the belt from the engine was very bent around the top where it looks like someone levered off the belt with a screwdriver, pushing against it. In a few places was very close to the belt. Bent it back now.
-The water pump looked like it didnt enter this world long after I did. Seemed to move normally but such an old water pump definately shouldn't have been in there.
-Last year put a new Injection Pump belt without replacing the Timing Belt. Then later changed the tensioner and the idler of the timing belt, again without changing the rest. Few people told me you're supposed to do it all at once.

Another thing is, as long as ive had the truck (2 years) the belt's always been pretty far over on the engine side, although I never gave me problems before. Now I put the new one on and did the tensioner with correct torque and its still pretty far over on the engine side, although i cant see or hear anything rubbing.

Originally posted by Monster LT Monster LT wrote:

From your post www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/timing-marks-not-lined-up_topic94316.html sounds like you skipped some teeth too.

That's what I thought when I wrote that post but...Afterwards I turned the engine round again and realised that the marks on the Inj. Pump crank and the Flywheel do match up, but only on every seccnd rotation of the Inj. Pump Crank. I can only assume that's how it's supposed to be? Would be a weird coincidence if the pump and the crankshaft ran out of time but matched up exactly every second rotation.

Think i was being a bit of an idiot basically. ClapClapClapClapClapClap

As you can tell by now, the process of me learning mechanics is a long and slow one.

Originally posted by Monster LT Monster LT wrote:

Why did the fuelpump belt break in the first place?

Literally f*** knows. Just snapped in two while we were driving. Put on a new one and everything went ok with it from then onwards. Took it to a few mechanics and no one could shed any light on the situation, other than maybe it had been somehow put on badly last time.

One mechanic told me there is a right way round and a wrong way round to put on the belt... Didnt make much sense to me as the belt is symmetrical but he was certain that was it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monster LT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 20 at 19:38
Originally posted by Junk Junk wrote:



-Most likely, the little bit of wire which hooks the tensioner onto the engine was rubbing on the belt (picture below). Looked like it was touching the belt a bit, and would explain the sweaking noise when turning the engine by hand. Problem is, theres a few mm give on that wire even when its put in properly. The new one isnt touching the belt but im worried it might move over again over time, as it's still got give. I'll have to keep checking it.
 


I don't remember having mm's of play on that spring. It should be tucked away and not be touching anything.
If all pulleys are straight on the front the belt shouldn't really move either.
The squeeking may have been the water pump. The one I replaced was squeeky like rubber on shiny clean teeth when turned the pulley after it was removed. Couldn't hear it otherwise.
Originally posted by Junk Junk wrote:


-The metal plate which sepates the belt from the engine was very bent around the top where it looks like someone levered off the belt with a screwdriver, pushing against it. In a few places was very close to the belt. Bent it back now.

Maybe was bent when mechanic was trying to get out the water pump. Too much bother. Gave up. 

Originally posted by Junk Junk wrote:


Another thing is, as long as ive had the truck (2 years) the belt's always been pretty far over on the engine side, although I never gave me problems before. Now I put the new one on and did the tensioner with correct torque and its still pretty far over on the engine side, although i cant see or hear anything rubbing.

If it was something rubbing you'd expect an even rub ware all over the belt not just a nick outof the belt in a specific spot.


Originally posted by Junk Junk wrote:

That's what I thought when I wrote that post but...Afterwards I turned the engine round again and realised that the marks on the Inj. Pump crank and the Flywheel do match up, but only on every seccnd rotation of the Inj. Pump Crank. I can only assume that's how it's supposed to be? Would be a weird coincidence if the pump and the crankshaft ran out of time but matched up exactly every second rotation.
1 full turn of flywheel should equal 2 turns at Cam / pump.


Originally posted by Junk Junk wrote:

Literally f*** knows. Just snapped in two while we were driving. Put on a new one and everything went ok with it from then onwards. Took it to a few mechanics and no one could shed any light on the situation, other than maybe it had been somehow put on badly last time.

One mechanic told me there is a right way round and a wrong way round to put on the belt... Didnt make much sense to me as the belt is symmetrical but he was certain that was it.

I don't think the belt is directional. I can check when I take a look at my spare. It would show on the belt arrows for direction.
Having said that I've not replaced pump belt yet as there is very little space to get at the pulleys.


Edited by Monster LT - 07 Jan 20 at 19:42
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