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    Posted: 21 Feb 20 at 11:01
It's only your data protection. That's data that as a commodity is now considered to be as or more valuable than oil as it allows those that hold it to engineer more ways to manipulate you and extract wealth from yourselves.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 10:36
If you follow the first link in your post - the one to the EU Trade Commission, you will find a link to the actual Customs Union Agreement:


Originally posted by EC Decision 96/142/EC EC Decision 96/142/EC wrote:

SECTION I
Elimination of customs duties and charges having equivalent effect
Article 4
Import or export customs duties and charges having equivalent effect shall be wholly abolished between the Community and Turkey on the date of entry into force of this Decision. The Community and Turkey shall refrain from introducing any new customs duties on imports or exports or any charges having equivalent effect from that date. These provisions shall also apply to customs duties of a fiscal nature.

So there are no customs duties on goods passing either way due to this trade deal, hence the attraction of building a factory in Turkey. Our manufacturing sector used to be in a similar position due to our membership of the EU, which is why successive governments were able to persuade companies like Nissan to invest in manufacturing in the UK. Unfortunately this will no longer the case as a result of Brexit, and so new investment in factories will not come to the UK, it will go elsewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 09:13
Turkey. The EU and Turkey are linked by a Customs Union agreement, which came into force on 31 December 1995. Turkey has been a candidate country to join the European Union since 1999, and is a member of the Euro-Mediterranean partnership.
https://ec.europa.eu › index_en

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Does Turkey have free trade with EU?
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However, the free trade agreements (FTAs) signed by the EU do not extend to Turkey, so the EU's FTA partners can export to Turkey tariff-free, while maintaining tariffs on Turkish goods, unless they also conclude a separate FTA agreement with Turkey.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 08:39
Originally posted by randolph57 randolph57 wrote:

WOW!

If you say so...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randolph57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 05:44
WOW!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 20 at 00:16
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

please make sure of your gactd
The building of the plant has been postponed until February 
The EU does not havrFYS with Turkey both ways only from the EU to Turkey. From Turkey to the EU still has tariffs 

The EU / Turkey Customs Union is tariff free in both directions for all industrial goods, so I'm not sure where you got that bit of info from.
 



Edited by clift_d - 19 Feb 20 at 08:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 22:07
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

No need to believe me when I say a forthcoming No-Deal Brexit poses an existential threat to the UK Car Industry? It's the consensus view pretty much everywhere except the 'Leave bubble'.

As you well know I wasn't talking about that - I was talking about your statement linking the Bridgend closure to Brexit, which is untrue.

Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

You can selectively pick and choose your quotes and tidbits all you like, with a cheeky nudge and a wink, but the car manufacturing industry does not agree with your rose-tinted view of its prospects in the UK if we end up in a No-Deal scenario.


Priceless! Have another look and you'll see that you selectively quoted yourself and I quoted you in full. Read it through again and tell me what I missed out:

The s*** piles up so fast you need wings to stay above it...

Ford to close Bridgend engine plant with 1500 jobs lost on site and many hundreds more lost in the supply chain.

At this point I think it's fair to say that if you still think that a No Deal Brexit, or indeed any kind of Brexit, will be beneficial for the UK then you've either got your hand in the cookie jar or you're a muppet.

As for my rose tinted view how have you worked that out? I haven't given a view on UK prospects in the event of a no deal Brexit.

There really isn't any reasoning with you so I'll give up and I'll leave you to it. Have fun.  Smile






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 21:59
Sorry for mistakes, bloody hard work on a phone 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 21:57
please make sure of your gactd
The building of the plant has been postponed until February 
The EU does not havrFYS with Turkey both ways only from the EU to Turkey. From Turkey to the EU still has tariffs 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 19:09
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

if brexit is so bad for the car industry why are VW moving a plant to Turkey. 

Sorry... but it would really help if you did a bit more research before posting.

1. Firstly the state of the process - last October VW actually announced a delay to the start of work to set up that plant, due to Turkey's actions in the Kurdish region in northern Syria, so it isn't currently going ahead at all.

2. Secondly, the reasons why VW have considered building a car plant in Turkey probably have a lot to do with the fact that there's a trade deal between the EU and Turkey that allows the passage of goods between the two markets without customs restrictions. It's called the Ankara Agreement, and it took eight years to negotiate from the initial talks in 1987 to the point at which it came into effect 31 December 1995. It will also leave Turkey in a better position in terms of trade with the EU than the UK will be if we leave at the end of this year with No-Deal.

Now imagine you're sitting in the boardroom at Ford, Vauxhall, Nissan, Toyota, JLR, etc, and you're currently seeing a UK government that is talking up a No-Deal scenario. You've explained very clearly to this government, numerous times, the potential impact to your business model in the UK, both in terms of customs costs and delays, of continuing to operate without a trade deal with your main regional market. Where do you think the board are going to decide to invest their money to build a next generation electric car? In the UK, or somewhere that has frictionless trade with the EU?


Edited by clift_d - 18 Feb 20 at 20:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 18:24
if brexit is so bad for the car industry why are VW moving a plant to Turkey. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 14:50
Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

I know who I believe. Wink

No need to believe me when I say a forthcoming No-Deal Brexit poses an existential threat to the UK Car Industry? It's the consensus view pretty much everywhere except the 'Leave bubble'.

Why has investment in the UK car industry slumped to around £90 Million last year, from nearly £2 Billion in 2016, while car production figures have also dropped by over a third over the same period? Why has Nissan reversed its 2016 decision to make the next X-trail in Sunderland, which will be now be made in Japan? Why have Vauxhall stated that the decision as to whether they make the next generation Astra at Ellesmere Port, and guarantee the survival of the plant there, depends on the terms of the UK's departure from the EU. And how about the CEO of Ford Europe, who has been quoted as saying:
Originally posted by Steve Armstrong, CEO of Ford of Europe Steve Armstrong, CEO of Ford of Europe wrote:

Hard Brexit is a red line. It could severely damage the UK’s competitiveness and result in a significant threat to much of the auto industry, including our own UK manufacturing operations.

You can selectively pick and choose your quotes and tidbits all you like, with a cheeky nudge and a wink, but the car manufacturing industry does not agree with your rose-tinted view of its prospects in the UK if we end up in a No-Deal scenario. Should that be the outcome, then it will be to the detriment of thousands of communities up and down the country, who will be on the receiving end of these industries being 'run down', as Patrick Minford terms it.


Edited by clift_d - 18 Feb 20 at 17:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 13:43
Your original post in full:


The s*** piles up so fast you need wings to stay above it...

Ford to close Bridgend engine plant with 1500 jobs lost on site and many hundreds more lost in the supply chain.

At this point I think it's fair to say that if you still think that a No Deal Brexit, or indeed any kind of Brexit, will be beneficial for the UK then you've either got your hand in the cookie jar or you're a muppet.

You have linked the Bridgend plant closure to Brexit, and yet the chap who is President of Ford Europe and who closed it publicly stated it had nothing to do with Brexit.

I know who I believe. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 12:01
Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

The Brigend closure may, or may not, have already been in the pipeline irrespective of Brexit, but you also need to be up front about what Ford's EU President, Stuart Rowley, said at the time when he was asked if further job losses could come in the event of a deal with the European Union not being struck. His response was: "Should a no-deal Brexit happen, we will need to evaluate the environment with regards to tariffs and customs issues - we’re hoping that doesn’t happen. If the business environment changes significantly, we will have to review our business plan."

Given that we are currently heading for a No-Deal Brexit, I would suggest that my original point still stands up to scrutiny.


You seem to have left out the bit where Stuart Rowley, President of Ford Europe, publicly stated that the closure of Bridgend had 'nothing to do with Brexit', which completely contradicts your original point.


I think you should perhaps go back and read my original post again, which said:

Quote At this point I think it's fair to say that if you still think that a No Deal Brexit, or indeed any kind of Brexit, will be beneficial for the UK then you've either got your hand in the cookie jar or you're a muppet.

The fact that Brigend may not have closed for reasons directly arising from Brexit does not negate the very direct warning that was given by the guy who'd just closed the plant that a No-Deal Brexit could well lead to further closures in the UK, and this is entirely in line with what I said in my original post.

You might think that the motor manufacturing sector in the UK is headed for a golden age of investment and productivity as a result of Brexit, but I doubt it, and I'm not alone in doubting it.

Even the Leave campaign's favourite economist, Prof Patrick Minford, believes that leaving the EU will lead to the UK car industry, and other UK manufacturing, being 'run down' in the same way as the coal industry and the steel industry were 'run down' - you can watch him say so to the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee in 2012:
https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1056568783400243201


Edited by clift_d - 18 Feb 20 at 12:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 20 at 11:04
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

The Brigend closure may, or may not, have already been in the pipeline irrespective of Brexit, but you also need to be up front about what Ford's EU President, Stuart Rowley, said at the time when he was asked if further job losses could come in the event of a deal with the European Union not being struck. His response was: "Should a no-deal Brexit happen, we will need to evaluate the environment with regards to tariffs and customs issues - we’re hoping that doesn’t happen. If the business environment changes significantly, we will have to review our business plan."

Given that we are currently heading for a No-Deal Brexit, I would suggest that my original point still stands up to scrutiny.


You seem to have left out the bit where Stuart Rowley, President of Ford Europe, publicly stated that the closure of Bridgend had 'nothing to do with Brexit', which completely contradicts your original point.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 20 at 17:39
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

Thats the most cheerful thing you have writen.
Clap


What's the cheerful bit for you ...?

Is it the idea of ending the transition period with a No-Deal Brexit?

I don't need to be much of a fortune teller to know that if we end up in that position, then none of us will have very much to be cheerful about, including you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 20 at 17:33
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

I would say that the majority of brexit supporters are probability labour supporters but due to the fact that they are totally incapable of running a government their supporters have turned to the only option.


I don't think the polling and statistical data supports your contention - it suggests instead that Leave supporters were largely Conservative and UKIP supporters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 20 at 17:29
Thats the most cheerful thing you have writen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 20 at 17:23
Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

Don't worry, you've been perfectly clear, but trying to tie Ford pulling out of Bridgend with jobs being lost because of Brexit is neither evidence nor fact.


The Brigend closure may, or may not, have already been in the pipeline irrespective of Brexit, but you also need to be up front about what Ford's EU President, Stuart Rowley, said at the time when he was asked if further job losses could come in the event of a deal with the European Union not being struck. His response was: "Should a no-deal Brexit happen, we will need to evaluate the environment with regards to tariffs and customs issues - we’re hoping that doesn’t happen. If the business environment changes significantly, we will have to review our business plan."

Given that we are currently heading for a No-Deal Brexit, I would suggest that my original point still stands up to scrutiny.

And before anyone tries to suggest that PM Johnson is going to get us a good deal, I would point to the following indicators:

1. A No-Deal Brexit remains the default outcome of the transition period.
2. The team in Downing Street are currently working very hard to stop people talking about a No-Deal Brexit. They have banned civil servants from using the term, and are trying to re-badge 'No-Deal' as 'a trading relationship with the EU like Australia’s'.
3. PM Johnson had a woeful track record on negotiations during his time as London Mayor, with a litany of poor deals which London tax-payers had to pick up the tab for.
4. The UK has, by every estimation, a fraction of the time available that most credible experts say is required to actually negotiate a meaningful trade deal.
5. The UK has already adopted, in statements by various ministers and the PM, a number of red-lines which make a No Deal exit more likely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 20 at 21:53
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

Sadly you aren't mate - you've got an agenda and you quote the 'evidence and facts' as you see it to further your cause. Nowt wrong with that mind but let's be honest about it.

Well that's novel... I don't think I've ever been accused about not being clear about which side of the argument I'm on, but there you go.

To be clear... for those at the back who really have been sleeping... I voted remain.

And the reason I quote 'evidence and facts' that support my side of the argument is because, by and large, the evidence and the facts support my side of the argument.


Don't worry, you've been perfectly clear, but trying to tie Ford pulling out of Bridgend with jobs being lost because of Brexit is neither evidence nor fact.
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