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EU...in or out...

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randolph57 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randolph57 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: EU...in or out...
    Posted: 19 Jun 17 at 06:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 17 at 21:15
Very well put
Can I use my bus pass
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 17 at 19:04
Paging nicq and Dropchip... Paging nicq and Dropchip...

Will nicq and Dropchip please make their way to London Town for 5.45am tomorrow as the bus to the Brexit negotiations leaves at 6am allowing you to be in Brussels for the 9am start.
The internet has been monitored regarding the UK / EU situation over the past year and you both have been identified through your postings on brick-yard as prized assets for the leave side and have therefore been co-opted onto the UK negotiating team.
Both of you are now the metaphorical Viagra required to transform the current weak and wobbly UK negotiating team to strong and stable.

#doingyourbitforblighty 

#brexitmeansbrexit (whatever the fook brexit actually is...)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 17 at 19:17
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

Politics is not a permanent fixed state, events occur and people can change their minds. Feck, even the current Conservative government changed their mind on the 5 year fixed term parliament act they themselves put in place, so we have another general election next week. The results of which will be interesting.


Oh dear...
 
Now we have a UK government as "Strong and Stable" as a pished and ketamined up jellyfish. Wacko

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrhutch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 13:48
blimey, just watched that as well..  

thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 13:37
Interesting/ terrifying viewing that.

Further proof (not that I needed any) that the Tories will happily dismantle this country around us for money, whilst lining their own and their corporate friends pockets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 13:13
Cheers, donecan.

I understand some folk are so busy with their day to day lives that they switch off when political stuff is discussed and often don't even vote.
But by doing so they are giving up the opportunity of influencing aspects that will directly effect them and their families in the future.

I mentioned the English NHS earlier. Here is 10min vid from a lad highlighting a little of what is going on. Yeah, it's not as slickly presented as the MSM news shows, but it goes into more detail than you are likely to see on the telly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCOPZGtvnpo

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 11:41
I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said danstervan (even if I'd prefer Scotland to stick with us...though I know as a nation we're not making it easy).

I think it's also really good to get a snapshot of people's opinions on this stuff, as day today we all exist in our own little echo chambers...good to step outside so as you say 'folk may learn how other folk see things'.

At the end of the day, as long as we're all properly thinking about what we're voting for and the policies that matter to us in an informed way then that's what democracy is about...I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 11:13
Originally posted by BeJay BeJay wrote:

Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

That's really just going round in circles now. 
Of course this could just be me whinging and moaning again...

Couldn't have put it more eloquently myself. you and I are just going to have to agree to differ on the subject as it's patently obvious neither of us is ever going to agree with the other's viewpoint, and I for one do have a life to be getting on with, so HERE ENDETH THE LESSON.


Is that it? Some selective editing and you're out.

You can't help getting the digs in can you. People trying to determine the future their society takes are deemed as whinging and moaning, then inferring I don't have a life.
It's absolutely fine to hold differing views. There is also nothing wrong with having conversations so folk may learn how other folk see things.

I've posted up a fair old bit of informative stuff within the discussion and nobody has commented on that which is actually a bit disappointing. Does the lack of response suggests people are actually ok with being governed by a bunch of corrupt, greedy, self serving psychopathic war mongers.
If you are then cool, but I along with many others will continue to choose a different path.

All the best to you and so long.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeJay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 17 at 09:18
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

That's really just going round in circles now. 
Of course this could just be me whinging and moaning again...

Couldn't have put it more eloquently myself. you and I are just going to have to agree to differ on the subject as it's patently obvious neither of us is ever going to agree with the other's viewpoint, and I for one do have a life to be getting on with, so HERE ENDETH THE LESSON. 

                                 



NIL ILLIGITIMUS CARBORUNDUM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 23:31
That's really just going round in circles now.
It's not solely Nicola, but the Scottish parliament that has started the process for a second indy ref. There was a majority of pro independence supporting parties (SNP & Greens) elected to the Scottish parliament in 2016. I'll point out that the voting system used for the Scottish parliament election makes it far harder to accomplish a majority than with FPTP.
There was also a vote in the Scottish parliament earlier this year that was in favour of a second indy ref at some point in the future once aspects of UK leaving the EU are known.
Of course Theresa May said now is not the time to the Section 30 order...and we are where we are.

This is just ongoing political procedure for the future. It's not us that is moaning about wanting another indy ref right now. That will be the unionist parties and their MSM patsies who can't leave the issue alone.
I will tell you that in the council elections we had a month ago every unionist party leaflet was full of no more indy ref stuff and nowt on the actual policies on how the local authority would be run should they get elected.
Similarly the general election literature that is currently getting delivered for the unionist parties is just no more indy ref stuff and little to nothing on party policy.
Oh, and those Scottish council elections are also fairer as they use single transferable vote rather than FPTP like in England.
Of course this now means that quite a lot of local authorities in Scotland are now under control of Conservative / Labour and Libdem coalitions. So LibLabCon seemingly happy to join together and keep out the SNP.
The situation is completely polarised around the constitutional issue and has been pretty much since 2014.

Anyway, moving on, here are a couple of links folk might like to read and ponder over what with the general election next week.

http://johnpilger.com/articles/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know
Top UKOK stuff.
Break out the flags and bunting and have a street party and be very proud of living in a society that allows this sort of stuff to happen.
Of course this could just be me whinging and moaning again...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeJay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 14:11
  Nobody denied the Scots self determination in the independence vote, it was the majority of Scots who voted that Scotland remain part of the UK not the English, so why keep harping on about England denying the Scots this and that.
   Unless and until, or if, Nicola gets you another vote on independence, and IF the majority of Scots then vote for that independence, (by no means a certainty) then and only then will the fact that Scotland voted as a region 62% to 38% to remain in the EU have any relevance to your argument, until that happens the EU referendum remains a UK wide vote, and granted 52% to 48% vote (of the people who actually voted) to leave the EU is in no way an 'overwhelming win' or a 'strong mandate' it is never the less a valid win and therefore a mandate to leave the EU. 
   As for me I still believe most of the arguments being put forward for another referendum on staying in or out of the EU are just mainly sour grapes from the remainers who dindn't get what they wanted, as I said in my first post moaners and whingers spitting the dummy because things went against them.
NIL ILLIGITIMUS CARBORUNDUM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 13:20
Hey Dropchip.

Stating Scotland is creating a border and unease is a bit rich when you consider the current UK situation with the EU and UK foreign policy... 
TBH I find that comment about unease extremely distasteful as it is clear that there has been concerted efforts by the unionist parties in Scotland to stoke sectarianism for political gain. It's what the UK does. Standard divide and rule tactic getting folk to bicker and fight amongst themselves on various subjects, whilst the rich elite continually cream off the wealth and cut funding to services so organisations like the English NHS to the point where it is failing..
You do know that is a political decision to under-fund it so they can then say it doesn't work and sell it off to their rich mates in the private sector.
Do you have the slightest inkling what no free at point of need healthcare means? You will have to pay to go private or pay some other rich dude's company health insurance premiums.
That may be fine for you if you are in a high paid job with healthcare perks. But the UK is a low pay economy where a lot of folk barely earn enough to make ends meet as it is.
Couple of examples of private healthcare costs I recently noticed in America to give an indication were a broken collar bone - 15k dollars, and a cesarean section birth - 60k dollars.


The Bank of England was nationalised in 1946 and is owned by the UK government and not solely England. In the event of the dissolution of the UK assets or liabilities would be negotiated.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/about/Pages/governance/default.aspx


We can properly discuss exports and revenues for the constituent parts of the UK when the UK government actually publish the correct information in a clear and concise form. That's proper links to the actual accounting data, No GERs  please as that is a hypothetical estimate on what an independent Scotland might look like which does not take into consideration many factors.

But by the looks of those figures you posted Scotland is exporting proportionally more per head than the rest of the UK. If Scotland is exporting 60% to England then it suggest England needs what it is importing from us. It's a two way thing so don't try and put in on Scotland trying to breakdown a trading relationship with England when England through the EUref result is looking to drag Scotland out of the single market with the EU. Scotland is a net exporter of diverse products so such folly is damaging to our economy.
The situation is a farce anyway as the main export ports are in England due to lack of development of the Scottish ports (can't develop the Clyde because the Trident nuclear subs). This means that products are hauled by road down from Scotland to England and loaded on to ships and then classed as exports from England. Similarly for imports the stuff from abroad lands in England and is distributed by road throughout the UK so difficult to accurately calculate the true picture.

Talking of exports are you happy with the UK selling arms to dubious recipients and thus facilitating and complicit in a lot of the ongoing conflicts around the globe. I notice you had a moan about immigrants earlier. Have you not worked out that a lot of immigration is directly caused by UK foreign policy. You moan at the symptoms but seem oblivious to acknowledging the cause.

So when you state Scotland should be more positive and assist the UK in becoming great, we have tried for a considerable length of time and rejected the Tories of all colours and what they stand for. We're waiting on England getting its socks on, but if they have got their socks on already and actually want a government that carries on the way they do then the choices between the Kingdoms that make up the UK are at odds with one another, so separation to go our own ways is a right we both have.
Will you deny a peoples' rights to self determination?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 08:00
You've missed the point I was making. I simply geared it towards a pro-Brexit supporter having a negative outcome at the hands of another part of the country. I was attempting to illustrate the frustration I imagine is felt when a situation is taken out of your hands. I say 'imagine'...I live in London, so since remain was in the majority, I felt it as well. Except I'm only in a city, not a part of the country that was already on the cusp of voting against UK Government/ Tory rule.

I am definitely pro-Scotland staying part of the UK, don't get me wrong. Scotland is a great nation and it would be really sad to see them go it alone. But that doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the frustration they must be feeling.

I can be critical of Brexit without demanding another referendum. We voted, it's happening...however, how we go about it is another matter. In the hands of the Tories? No thanks.

Knee jerk (change for change sake) reactions are no guarantee of a better outcome for the UK. "Would I be positive if no change happened to the country?" Will you still be positive when potentially so much changes for the worst? No one knows. That post Brexit our climate laws are so relaxed at the hand of the UK Government it damages our countryside...

EU directives have helped us up our recycling, get our beaches and rivers up to scratch, cleaner air, cleaner energy, protection of natural habitats. EU legislation forces our government (who often see the environment as a tick on their policy sheet, rather than protecting the natural well being of this country and the world) to keep our environmental standards on track. We know how May feels about the environment.




Edited by donecan - 01 Jun 17 at 08:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dropchip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jun 17 at 00:28
Think about the question your asking. Would I be positive if no change happened to the country? So it stayed exactly the same because the majority desired we should. Well no. Because we need change within the uk. Many things are not right. However, would I be throwing my toys out the Oran saying we want a referendum because it's not gone our way. Knowing that either way we wouldn't remain in the EU, it's fighting s losing battle.

The majority in Scotland clearly understand that being park of the UK is a benefit to the whole economy and it is. Fact nearly all Scottish university's actively look for students from England because of funding. Because they are so under funded they rely on those fees, English student have to use student loans to pay fees in Scotland - is that right? No. But we go with it.

Scotlands exports are estimated at 80billion. Over 60% of that is with the UK. And only approx 20% with the EU. Why would you want to breakdown a realationship with the UK.

What military would Scotland use as its defence?

What currency would Scotland trade in?

Take away the support from the bank on England and what happens to Scotland?

The uk exports around 720billion. 14% to USA 10% to Germany 6% to China. Our hands are tied with trading deals until the end of brexit. Think about China economy yet we only trade at 6% and the US 14%. This could be massive for us.

Scotland inflashiom dropped by 1.2% yet overall the uk economy is trading at 2.4% Scotland behind me of Woolworths and BHS unable to move with the changes in the business environment. Look what happened to these so called retailers.

Times are changing and Scotland need to pull there socks up and move forward so they not left behind!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 17 at 14:57
Funny you should mention taking 'away what information you want'. There's absolutely no way I'm going to trust anything written in The Sun. It's a Murdoch owned paper, and if you take anything written in it without an entire truck of salt you're only fooling yourself.

However, I did hunt down the ComRes survey it mentions (handy they don't actually link to it in the article).

You can't take a sample survey of 1000 odd people, then just inject statements like 'Brits are furious' or 'an overwhelming 57 per cent of Scots'...that's sensationalism. 

57% is not overwhelming. And unless one of the questions is 'are you furious' you can't invent opinion. Best to find the source of an article rather than trust tabloid journalism.

Just a shoe on the other foot moment...

If during Brexit you swap it round so Scotland voted to remain in the EU and had the overall power to action it, but the majority of England voted leave....and then we remained, against the majority will of England...would you simply accept that and "be positive about the changes"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dropchip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 17 at 12:54
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/3090903/poll-reveals-brits-are-furious-with-tearaway-scots-who-want-break-away-from-uk-out-despite-trousering-billions-from-the-rest-of-us/amp/


From the sun. Believe what you want but with all politics take away what information you want. Scotland is creating a border and unease by constantly winging and whining. But it seems there is enough evidence to suggest that it is the minority causing the problems.

Like I said previously put all your energy into being positive about the changes coming and how we can work together to make the whole of the UK great again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 17 at 11:23
Originally posted by BeJay BeJay wrote:

Have you been deaf and blind since the brexit referendum result was announced? the calls for another referendum began almost immediately and have continued virtually unabated ever since, led by the 'remainers' and the banks and financial industry mainly, who didn't get the result they thought they would. and I'm sure I recall someone moaning about the Scottish independence referendum not going her way and wanting another chance to overturn what was a democratic vote by the Scottish population to remain part of the UK, I seem to recall her name was NICOLA STURGEON.

England isn't determining Scotlands future course, The UK (which Scotland voted to remain a part of) is determining the UK's future course, and if I can be just a little pedantic, (using your own figures from a later post) since when was 8.3% (I think it was 8.3%, no I'm certain it was 8.3%) been equal to 91.7%.


With a 52% leave to 48% remain result over the UK in the EU ref when it wasn't and still isn't clear what leaving actually means, you will inevitably get folk discussing the matter. Folk wanting another EU ref so soon are indeed not really respecting the result and it still isn't clear what another vote would actually accomplish when the specific terms of UK exit from EU are unknown.
However with such a close result it is hardly a mandate for a hard leave, more like a mandate for a soft leave.
But if you think 52% is an overwhelming win and strong mandate to leave, then how does that square with the 62% remain to 38% leave in Scotland?

Yes, Scotland did vote to remain in the UK in 2014, but you have to acknowledge significant events have happened since then. Particularly with regard to EU status, not forgetting a myriad of other broken promises that were used to scare people into staying in the UK. The pro UK campaign was called Project Fear after all.
Politics is not a permanent fixed state, events occur and people can change their minds. Feck, even the current Conservative government changed their mind on the 5 year fixed term parliament act they themselves put in place, so we have another general election next week. The results of which will be interesting.


Due to the un-equal population splits between the two kingdoms of approximately currently running at 10 to 1, the Kingdom of England is effectively determining Scotland's future course due to its larger size, or Scotland wouldn't be getting dragged out of the EU when it voted to remain, or living under a Conservative government, or dropping bombs on middle east, or committing to nuclear power when we have an abundance of renewable power potential, or spending a fortune on renewing Trident missile system...

If you look at the various goings on in Westminster or read up on them in Hansard you can see that the Scottish MPs continually get outvoted by the larger number of MPs representing England.

FYI, in 1707 at the time of union (no referendum for the people to decide that event back then) the population of Scotland was 1 million to England's 5 million (approximately). What does that say about how the development and infrastructure of the two areas progressed over the course of the next few hundred years if we are now at a point where England has grown from 5 to 10 times the size of Scotland regarding population numbers. There must have been significantly more spent on infrastructure and services to allow that to happen. That would be a political choice for that to occur.

With regard to another referendum on Scottish independence, there has indeed been a process put in place to protect Scotland's interests when the terms of the UK's exit from the EU are known. If you mistake prudent discussions and procedure to protect the future of a nation with moaning so be it, but it is just yet another example of the differences in how we view politics north and south of the border.
It's interesting to observe the responses I get on here and how some folk seem unwilling to simply be cool with an area they do not live in choosing to go a different way from their own.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeJay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 17 at 00:11
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:



Who's continually moaning about wanting another referendum, and a referendum on what?

Have you been deaf and blind since the brexit referendum result was announced? the calls for another referendum began almost immediately and have continued virtually unabated ever since, led by the 'remainers' and the banks and financial industry mainly, who didn't get the result they thought they would. and I'm sure I recall someone moaning about the Scottish independence referendum not going her way and wanting another chance to overturn what was a democratic vote by the Scottish population to remain part of the UK, I seem to recall her name was NICOLA STURGEON.

Britain is not a country, it's a geographical land mass. The UK state is not a country, it's as it names states ie: a union of two kingdoms.
Where is the English parliament? That's right, there isn't one. England treats the UK parliament as its own defacto parliament.
I don't deny England's choice in determining its future course, why should England determine Scotland's if we are in a union of supposed equals? Equal partners have a choice to leave if they should wish, yes?

England isn't determining Scotlands future course, The UK (which Scotland voted to remain a part of) is determining the UK's future course, and if I can be just a little pedantic, (using your own figures from a later post) since when was 8.3% (I think it was 8.3%, no I'm certain it was 8.3%) been equal to 91.7%.

Can you give me any idea why the pro UK parties and mainstream media fight tooth and nail to keep Scotland subjugated and part of the UK? Why on earth would a Conservative party that is carrying out an austerity agenda and cutting funding to numerous services want to keep a hold of a "region" it portrays as subsidy junkies?
 
In case you haven't noticed the austerity agenda is not working. UK debt in the past five years more than doubled to 1.7 trillion whilst the richest in society have doubled their wealth.
Feel free to give me some inkling why that is and if you are happy with what is going on.
And for your information I have absolutely no beef with the English, it is the political makeup of the UK that is the issue.



NIL ILLIGITIMUS CARBORUNDUM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dropchip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 May 17 at 23:56
Politics huh.
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