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EU...in or out...

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Topic: EU...in or out...
Posted By: donecan
Subject: EU...in or out...
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 11:14
There's a (mostly) friendly debate over on the other forum about the upcoming referendum. Not trying to start a political fire, or get too serious, just intrigued how people's attitudes might differ on here compared to over there?

Thoughts?







Replies:
Posted By: Titus A Duxass
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 12:00
If I was allowed to vote I don't know which way I'd go.

I can see the point in the EU but I don't like the fact that those making the decisions haven't been voted in.

I'm hoping that there won't a spite vote in favour of leaving.

Both sides are coming out with some real guff at the moment but remainers have the biggest bucket of bullshit.


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Bollocks to it all!!
51°24′N 12°52′E


Posted By: donecan
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 16:21
You're right, there's all sorts of shit being spouted by both sides...if you don't mind me asking are you natively German or British? 

What's the general atmosphere in Germany regarding the UK thinking of doing a runner?


Posted By: GMAN140
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 16:48
Im voting to stay in because if were not not in we cant influence them and we will be a little fish in a big pond. 
Give it a 100 years and it could be something stronger the America and i love the idea of telling them where to go .


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 18:11
General opinion I get from everyone I know is happy to stay in if it wasn't for immigration/asylum seekers.

We're not talking casual racists or xenophobes - just the average chap(s) who feels slightly aggrieved that school places are over subscribed, doctors surgery over subscribed, social housing etc. I guess it's all very well having a rapidly expanding population if the public services provided cater for the numbers.

Maybe look at why the UK is a good choice for immigrants? I guess there must be a law governing parity of pay for benefits received.

Asylum/illegals? Follow the law maybe?

As has been said, so much shite being produced I have yet to see well qualified statistics either way.


I pay the local polish community £4 for 20 Marlboro so happy days.

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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: mrhutch
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 23:51
Originally posted by ELVIS ELVIS wrote:

I pay the local polish community £4 for 20 Marlboro so happy days.

and I've been on the phone to you when you've done such a deal at the school gates..

I really don't know and I usually know exactly where I stand politically.

it's all rhetoric and summation as to the outcome of an in or out vote.  

The financial markets will panic and be unsettled for at least 36 months if we vote to leave, which means the only assets to invest in if you have money to make more money from is gold or bricks and mortar.

Which is what the people with money will do.

Tag on the end of this the slump/crisis in the oil market (and therefore all other commodities) means that house prices will rise, fuelled by investors and low interest rates, the stock market will plateau and there will be a discontent with major blue chips expanding in the UK rather than france/germany.

IF the powers that be change the VAT rate again then I won't sleep for three months sorting shit out..

fuck knows.


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T3 1981 Westy Vanagon - thinks lubricant is a fuel


Posted By: mrhutch
Date Posted: 24 May 16 at 23:55
Asylum/illegals is a fucking red herring.  we're not in schengen (sp?) so if we wanted to stop people we have the power anyway.  

As someone who has an office in Dover, and friends who drive trucks across the continent it's our lack of policing not the EU that is to "blame".

We are capitalists and market forces drives workforce migration.  Time and hindsight are a great leveller. 


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T3 1981 Westy Vanagon - thinks lubricant is a fuel


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 00:38
Indeed it is chap. International Asylum laws are separate to schengen. But it does go hand in hand under the immigration/migration umbrella which the average chap on the street appears to be disgruntled at due to benefits (no pun intended) offered/gained.

If i was from *insert former Eastern European county now in EU* and i could move elsewhere that wasn't shit/as shit? Of course i would, think most people would. 

As previous, the world is fucking peachy if the public infrastructures can support the numbers they were intended to serve. Not sure about your neck of the woods but in this call-sign, it doesn't.

Polish Marlboro - just ordered 3 cartons for £120 since i last posted! Fucking love the Poles i do!




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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: JILLY
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 02:18
Well its a big NO, I want out! I live in the fens, thats where all your veg comes from, or a lot of it anyway. Round here there is a really large influx of Eastern Europeans. Yep, they are keen workers but sadly that is at the expense of young native Brits. I have a couple of storys. First one my youngest son, 19, got a job at a local firm packing spuds for supermarkets. He didnt mind doing the job but come break time he decides he will sit in his car to have a fag in the car park cos he doesnt want to stay with the rest of the workforce in the fag shelter basically cos he cant talk Lithuanian. He gets a warning for this so he thinks its because he is smoking in his car........... A few days later he gets called to the office again. This time he has been reported for eating crisps in his car!!!!!!! Upshot was he was sacked. The foreigners didnt like him, hes stole one of their jobs! Next story. Older son, 22, gets a job as a dustman but via an agency. He has been doing this for about a year now. He likes doing the job even though its 6am start and he doesnt finish until 4pm at the earliest. Minimum wage of course. He has just been offered the chance of a contract with the local council and has applied for said position but heres the rub....... Up until now the agency has only sent the council native English speaking lads, maybe its the Unions? Who knows. But now he tells me that has just changed. So another job for Brits has just disappeared with the dust, excuse the pun. Now we all know the Eastern Europeans are up for improving themselves, they work hard and want to get on in a foreign land but sadly that is at the expense of our native younger generation. Even now the majority of them seem to be quite content collecting dole money and then spending it on dope to suppress their sad lazy minds and this govenment doesnt seem to care? Or even try to do something about it? I cannot directly influence government decisions in this country buts hats off, and I am sure Dave will regret it, they have given me the chance to help my kids.


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1991 LT35e
2002 Octavia 1.9td estate (hers)
1991 Fiat Panda 750 Mania (for sale)
1985 T3 Devon pop top
2000 MGF


Posted By: Titus A Duxass
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 05:33
Originally posted by donecan donecan wrote:

You're right, there's all sorts of shit being spouted by both sides...if you don't mind me asking are you natively German or British? 

What's the general atmosphere in Germany regarding the UK thinking of doing a runner?

I'm natively (Y)orkshire.

The general atmosphere with regard to the UK is  - who?


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Bollocks to it all!!
51°24′N 12°52′E


Posted By: Titus A Duxass
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 05:34
Originally posted by GMAN140 GMAN140 wrote:

Im voting to stay in because if were not not in we cant influence them .....

But the UK can't even influence them now.


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Bollocks to it all!!
51°24′N 12°52′E


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 09:38
Originally posted by Titus A Duxass Titus A Duxass wrote:

Originally posted by GMAN140 GMAN140 wrote:

Im voting to stay in because if were not not in we cant influence them .....


But the UK can't even influence them now.
You only have to look at the so called improvements Cameron negotiated for us.


Posted By: busbuddy
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 11:07
Originally posted by Titus A Duxass Titus A Duxass wrote:

Both sides are coming out with some real guff at the moment but remainers have the biggest bucket of bullshit.

this is the biggest problem, its almost got to the point where they come on tv yelling

'if we stay in EU we will all die' 

'if we leave the EU we will all die'

which means the average joe just stops listening to it all



i (personally) think the money we give to the EU will be a bigger influence on voting than immigrants, all the waffle about milk/petrol/houses/immigrants/etc are all tangible to the person in the street but a random figure like 700 billion to the EU in return for something the public cant hold in their hand (whether it benefits them or not) is a bit harder to explain 
more people in this country will have been affected by government cutbacks than by immigrants and they might vote to keep money in the UK's wallet 

 the 'stay in' campaigners seem to be more scared of the voting outcome, maybe because there might actually be a decent public turnout this time 


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http://www.karmann-coachbuilts.com" rel="nofollow - Karmann





Posted By: donecan
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 11:48
Similar to hutch, I normally have a pretty good idea of what I'm going to vote for in advance...this time, not sure, realistically because no-one else does either! There's no accurate prediction for what would happen either way...we're just taking a leap...

Farming family, they want out…missus works in the arts, she wants in…both myself and her are keen on what the EU does to force our lazy government to take notice of the environment (which they tend to treat as a policy tick box rather than a real issue) so I guess I'm leaning towards in?

We like our vans and getting about in the great outdoors, for all it's faults, the EU seems to have helped us clean up our beaches, rivers, air etc. Left to our own devices I don't imagine we'd have done the same...


Posted By: Nugget
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 18:37
I was hovering around the idea of staying in but the negative campaigning of the in campaigners has swung me in the opposite direction, I don't mind the idea of being European which will always be but I really think that Great Britain as the 5th largest economy in the world could and should be able to get on without being tied to the bureaucracy of the EU and will be better for it.

I've not seen any evidence yet to support any of the scaremongering coming from Cameron et al, but I still  think people are too scared to vote to leave, personally I think it should be seen as something very positive that we can break away and rebuild our identity as a country. 

Nigel Lawson was on Jeremy Vines program yesterday, its well worth a listen and settled my mind to vote to leave.


Posted By: gusbang
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 19:22
I'm voting OUT!

I was undecided until I watched "Brexit the movie".

All I keep hearing are very good sound reasons to leave backed up with facts and stats.

All I keep hearing from the parties that want to stay in are scaremongering stories not based on any fact or stats.

If you're undecided you should read this:
Posted anonymously

On June 23rd, I am expected to make one of the most important decisions in my life which could affect my children and grandchildren in a way I don’t even understand yet. I am an average guy with a family, a house, and a normal lifestyle. I am sort of Joe average. Some people have asked me recently about how I’m voting, mainly because they don’t know themselves and want another view or opinion. I’ve actually been quite interested in the opportunity to vote in the referendum and I’ve done some research and a lot of thinking and I know how I’m going to vote and why.

I am however, concerned about the broadcasting from our elected government. They also know what they want and why but we, the people, need our government to provide us with a balanced view so we, the people, can make our own mind up. For that to happen, we need to understand all the good points, and all the bad points. At the moment, I can understand why some people are gripped by fear that the world will end if we leave the EU.

But will it?

Well, I see 3 main areas, which I thought about. Political, economic and immigration.

Before I go any further, I have already accepted one thing. Any change will result in good things and not so good things. I can’t think of one example, which has changed, which hasn’t created some benefits and burdens.

Let’s get the easy one’s out of the way….

Political. – As a UK citizen, I want my laws determined by the MP’s we elected as a democracy should be. Our Lords are the regulators of the decisions made in the commons and I’m good with that. What I don’t want are laws imposed on me by people who weren’t elected and are trying to find a “One size fits all” solution to many different countries who all have different tolerances, expectations and cultures.

Of all of the imposed laws from the EU, I can live without a law that stipulates that cucumbers must not have a bend in excess of 10 degrees. Some of our politicians quite fancy a career in the EU after their own political career has come to and end in the UK and this is the reason why I think some of them are so keen to stay.

Economic – This is where I see, and accept, that things will be a little worse before they get better. Let’s get one thing clear though. Big business leaders only want one thing. More sales and bigger profits. That’s not wrong, it’s their job, and what shareholders expect. Quite simply, if the companies they’re running don’t make more money every year, they lose their job.

Imagine owning the only supermarket in a town where for the past 10 years, more and more people have come to live there and for the next 10 years, more and more people will arrive. If you owned that supermarket, you’d be rubbing your hands together. Now imagine that someone said that no more houses could be built and some people had to leave. You wouldn’t want that to happen so would disagree. And that’s what the impact will be, less people spending less money is not good for business. You can’t blame them for voting for Remain, but they’re only concerned about themselves.

I’ve also thought about the impact on house prices and rent. In 2000, I remember renting a massive house while I was in between house moves. The rent was £750 per month. Since the bulk addition of several European counties in 2004, rents have consistently increased beyond the rate of inflation. This is easy to understand, more people, not the equal number of more house increases competition for housing and increased rents. Increased rents mean better profits for landlords so people start to buy houses to rent out. Competition for houses increases which increases house prices.

And we all think this is great that the house some of us bought in the 90’s is now worth 3 times what we bought it for, we’re rich! But then I think of my children who can’t afford to buy a house now and I sometimes wonder whether they ever will. I was chatting to a guy at work last week who at the age of 32 had bought his first modest house with a 30 year mortgage. He was so pleased. But that doesn’t sit with me right. I bought my house (3 bed semi) when I was 22 with a 5% deposit and 3.5 times my salary. If the average salary is £22k, £77k doesn’t buy you anything now.

It might be an unpopular thought, but I want house prices to come down so my children can buy a 3 bed semi with a 5% deposit for 3.5 times their salary. And house prices will only come down if there is less competition and more houses built. I’m afraid you can’t achieve that by staying in the EU with an unlimited amount of potential people able to live and work here.

Also, on an economic front, there are too many people telling us that our economy will fall dramatically as we’ll have to negotiate new trade agreements with all the current EU countries. And let’s not forget Obama telling us all that we’ll be at the back of the queue with a trade deal with the USA.

Firstly, we’re a bigger importer than exporter, it’s always been that way. We buy more than we sell so therefore our buying power is more important than our selling power. For sure, some UK goods might be less attractive if import taxes are imposed on them from the EU if we leave but our customer is the world.

We have some of the most prestigious brands in the world. In no particular order, the one’s which come to mind are JCB, Rolls Royce, Burberry, Hotpoint, HSBC, Barclays, Tesco etc etc. I think we can confidently go global. Why do we want the EU to negotiate on our behalf?

And now for immigration. I have no idea why we’re all afraid to even bring up the subject but it does have a big impact and affects us all personally, socially and economically.

Over the past 12 years, since our immigration started to boom, I’ve met a lot of people who have moved to the UK to live and work. In general, I find the people I’ve met to be honest, hard working people with families who intend to make the most of the opportunity of living and working in the UK.

Our service industry is better for it, with many EU migrants choosing to work in many different sectors from coffee shops, to supermarkets. We’ve benefitted from many skills including the main building trades. Many trained nurses and doctors have joined our NHS. No doubt many more have arrived who have filled a skills gap we just don’t have and we, as a society have and are benefitting.

But there’s a problem that comes with this.

As a UK citizen, my personal belief is that the UK is the most attractive country in the EU. If you create a law that says that any citizen can freely choose where in the EU they can live and work, many will naturally choose to move to what they believe will give them the best opportunity to better themselves. Nothing wrong with that, it’s completely normal behaviour.

But if that country does not invest in infrastructure and services at the same rate of population growth two things happen. Things go up in price e.g. houses. And services become overstreched e.g. Doctors, schools, hospitals, roads etc.

The other thing I have an issue with is the type of immigration we have. I am absolutely convinced that we need immigration to thrive and prosper. Not just to ensure we have the right skills but also to make our society richer.

OK, so I can have my car hand washed for £3 just about anywhere now but how many unskilled people do we really need? I don’t think we need any. We have around 2 million of them sitting at home most days looking for a job. The broader problem is that we have created a society that believes not working is a choice and if they can’t be an instant celebrity, they refuse to work for minimum wage. We could solve that problem if we really wanted to.

I also see communities within communities. There are street’s I walk down now that I used to walk down 12 years ago where I only ever hear foreign languages being spoken and European shops selling European goods to European people. That doesn’t feel like an integrated society and I don’t really like it.

I want immigration, but I want to attract people from all over the world who have skills we need and who can add value to the place I live and work. I want those people to choose to come here because they like the values we live by, and want to be part of it.

I also don’t like the laws which are imposed on us that says we have to pay all EU immigrants the same social security benefits as UK citizens when we have no control over where that money is spent. At least the 2 million people sitting at home claiming job seekers allowance are spending that money here, benefitting our own economy but I can’t get my head around how a working father from the EU can claim working families tax credits, family allowance, income support and send as much back to his family in his native country as he chooses. When the minimum wage in the UK is 10 times higher than some eastern European countries and benefits are higher, how can we allow that money to be used in another economy where the cost of living is a fraction of the UK?

Imagine being a call handler in a call centre, a pretty average job on £18k to £20k a year. Now imagine another country you could move to, to do the same job for £200k a year. It’s an opportunity not to be missed. You’d live as cheaply as possible and send every spare penny home.

There are many people who are doing just that in the UAE. But the UAE are a growing country who need and want our skills. They’ve already stated to create laws themselves to ensure emirate people are at the front of the queue for jobs and skills. And there’s no hand outs or public services, everything is private sector and when you have no work, it’s goodbye.

I completely understand why Churchill had his vision for a “United States of Europe” after world war two. When created, the common market was brilliant and has served us well over the decades. But nothing lasts forever and things change.

I don’t remember agreeing to or voting for all the things which have been imposed on me. And I certainly don’t like what’s ahead of me either.

So on balance I’m voting to leave the EU. I accept it will have an economic impact. My house may reduce in value, some people may lose their jobs, the £ may fall in value so holidays might cost a bit more.

But if my children can buy a house and pay off a mortgage within their working life, if their children can go to a school that they choose, if I can get an appointment at the doctors or hospital treatment and not sit in hours of traffic every day then I’ll be happy with that.

And in the future, when the UK is back to being the greatest country in the world that attracts the most talented people from all over the world who create the industries and brands that create job opportunities for the future generations, I can look back and feel that I did the right thing.

Anon.



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T3 Doka 2.1MV


Posted By: gusbang
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 19:25
Originally posted by Titus A Duxass Titus A Duxass wrote:

Originally posted by GMAN140 GMAN140 wrote:

Im voting to stay in because if were not not in we cant influence them .....

But the UK can't even influence them now.

Agree with that, no influence what so ever....


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T3 Doka 2.1MV


Posted By: jason k
Date Posted: 25 May 16 at 20:46
Rolls Royce isn't ours, nor is burberry.

Lots of disinformation around the information from both sides.   

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Bcs shallowest surf award winner 2006
camperjam 2011 chug and tug team member
aberdare. south wales
newest member of karmann korner
no longer the only moderator to manage to ban himself





Posted By: Aidan
Date Posted: 26 May 16 at 06:35
as I see it the UK economy is floated on the financial services sector which skims 1/2% off the world wide economy every day which in turn allows the UK govt to borrow over a £5 per head of population per day to prop it all up despite trying to reduce expenditure, and we have to defend that by having a massive arms industry anda  nuclear deterrent and then sell weapons around the world leading to war and population displacement and then complain that people from elsewhere want to come and live here, the land of 5% national unemployment and millions working in call centres cold calling and selling shite whilst we waste 1% of GDP on advertising mostly harmful cheap foodstuffs to the gullible while complaining that the NHS can't cope with the consequences and make us all live forever, whilst we don't train and retain enough teachers, doctors and nurses ourselves despite having more people going to university and disparity between the haves and have nots increasing; I reckon if the rest of europe could vote they'd vote us out, Britain you are the weakest link

staying in is probably best for the rest of the planet, and most likely to lead to a better balanced europe and world ;go our own way and we will be the 51st state and go the way of all the great civilisations in history

the Eu costs us only 0.5% of GDP, ie half of what we spend on advertising shite

shame I can't say this on the other place because eventually someone will get arsey and or apply Godwin's rule


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Aidan Talbot, gearboxes for watercooled engines, 4, 5 speed and syncro front and rear rebuilt. 01691 648011, 07817 377938....www.aidantalbot.co.uk


Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 26 May 16 at 06:58
WHS ^^^ I'm sure the EU has massive flaws and is far from perfect.

But I don't fancy being left in the hands of the Brexot politicians if we leave without the EU policies to protect us from whatever evil schemes they'd come up with left to their own devices.


Posted By: donecan
Date Posted: 26 May 16 at 12:22
Well said.


Posted By: White Van man
Date Posted: 26 May 16 at 13:30
Personally, hard facts would be nice, but that won't happen as no one knows the outcome. I think once the votes are counted we will be leaving, right or wrong everyone seems to think this will stop the immigration of people into the U.K and the NHS will have loads of funds and shifty Cameron and the health MP Mike ? Hunt will resign.
Interesting article aside I read was that a lot of U.K employment agencies advertise abroad for staff more than here.To guarantee a workforce that will turn up and work etc. I had a friend that used to work 12hr shifts on a food production line, end of his 3 month review he was classed as unhelpful , well you wont be on a factory floor when everyone speaks a foreign language bar you. 

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Grimsby ,the no1 VW Metropolis town of England


Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 26 May 16 at 22:09
As I expected to see here on this site there is some reasonable discussion. Guessed that was going to be the case what with folk travelling in Europe with their vans and actually considering the various implications of the result.

At last the English get a chance to see the bullshit media in full effect. Endlessly spewing out hyperbolic headlines. "The pound will crash / rise", "House prices will fall / rise, (delete as appropriate to pander to a particular demographic of audience), "Immigration blah blah blah".

Us real northerners have put up with this crud for years, particularly during the recent campaign on the question of whether Scotland should be an independent country. The Better Together lot even called their campaign "project fear", which included such classics as threatening old folks that they'd lose their pensioners if they voted yes, the oil will run out, etc etc.

It's sad and utterly predictable watching the same tactics being used to scare or unsettle the electorate regarding the EU referendum.
The bases trying to retain power are already covered with Pig Fooker and Coke Head for stay, and BoJo and various others for out.
It's not as if any one of those millionaires gives two fecks about losing their jobs and its meagre wage. They are just placemen groomed to front the cause. Either way the result goes they'll have done their service and reap the rewards accordingly.

This whole EU vote is only happening because the Conservatives are in power. All the polls prior to GE15 said that was never going to happen, but it's not everyone that has the cash to run polls and release specific data and therefore influence the vote...
It turns out the Conservatives are currently being investigated by 8 different police forces for electoral fraud. This could ultimately mean jail time for the guilty as they broke some rules relating to regional / national expenditure during the GE campaigning. That could mean their governance is not legitimate.
Yet that barely makes the headline news. But there's headlines on a couple of Scottish MPs getting laid, which last I heard was a legal activity, but alas you'll find no such in-depth critical analysis or dogged journalistic endeavours to uncover or hold individuals to account on the decades of paedophilia carried out by politicians and BBC staff.
Just suck it up suckas and continue to pay your TV licence fee to be lied to or mislead by organisations that harboured paedophiles for years.

Also remember that nearly all the newspapers are owned by just half a dozen ultra rich non domiciled tax exiles, and the companies themselves are generally registered offshore or through some other tax dodging system. With those credentials do you really think the editorial line they take is about providing the common man in the street real news. Or is it just a load of divisive pish they push to serve their masters allowing them to continue to divide and rule over the distracted and confused plebs squabbling amongst themselves over such things as their religions or lack of one, skin colours, ethnicity, or even football teams.

You can only vote based on your own knowledge or perception of reality, but it's hardly a fair democratic or informed decision making process when the electorate are continually force fed dubious information which is often contradictory.
Either way if it all gets too much for you remember that you still have the right to revolt, well at least for the time being...

NSFW




Posted By: donecan
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 08:40
Read this earlier, made me chuckle, plus it makes some good points...

(Tried to copy n' paste the whole lot onto here but it had a mare and wouldn't let me)

http://glwtf.net/" rel="nofollow - https://glwtf.net/




Posted By: robbydoo
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 10:33
Personally I haven't read a conclusive report to justify either way........That I'm taking is that it is not clear cut and is a total matter of opinion to what suits the individual best......
 
Immigrants!.......I believe a lot of people think that been in the EU is why they come to this country and voting out will stop them coming in........don't really think this is the case and people that vote out will be in for a huge shock.....
 
To be honest if the immigrant issue is resolved then the vote in/out would be a totally different call to many people, I believe it is just been used by those wanting out to win over the masses but in reality people will still flock to the UK because we let them in and support them.
 
My Vote......undecided still at the moment....


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1985 LT40 2.4TD Coach built Pioneer Diamond


Posted By: Tim Hamnett
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 20:15
Originally posted by Aidan Aidan wrote:

as I see it the UK economy is floated on the financial services sector which skims 1/2% off the world wide economy every day which in turn allows the UK govt to borrow over a £5 per head of population per day to prop it all up despite trying to reduce expenditure, and we have to defend that by having a massive arms industry anda  nuclear deterrent and then sell weapons around the world leading to war and population displacement and then complain that people from elsewhere want to come and live here, the land of 5% national unemployment and millions working in call centres cold calling and selling shite whilst we waste 1% of GDP on advertising mostly harmful cheap foodstuffs to the gullible while complaining that the NHS can't cope with the consequences and make us all live forever, whilst we don't train and retain enough teachers, doctors and nurses ourselves despite having more people going to university and disparity between the haves and have nots increasing; I reckon if the rest of europe could vote they'd vote us out, Britain you are the weakest link

staying in is probably best for the rest of the planet, and most likely to lead to a better balanced europe and world ;go our own way and we will be the 51st state and go the way of all the great civilisations in history

the Eu costs us only 0.5% of GDP, ie half of what we spend on advertising shite


shame I can't say this on the other place because eventually someone will get arsey and or apply Godwin's rule

Hear, hear!!
I couldn't have put it better.Thumbs Up




Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 27 May 16 at 21:33
well I need it over and done with and an 'In' vote so people get their bloody houses on the market so I can find somewhere to move to!




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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 13:08
And right on que, just before the purdah period kicks in they roll out the old your pension will drop warning gag...

That'll scare the pensioners and influence their vote. Especially as so many don't use the internet so are unable to find out their pension was utter crap in the first place!

The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world

The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union

The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world

The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU

The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU

The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries

The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU

The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe

The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe

The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.

The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality in the entire planet


To update the Conservative electoral fraud issue I mentioned previously, I see it is now 19 police forces investigating 28 MPs.






Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 14:38
So what does that prove.
Being in has done very little for us.


Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 17:02
It's done a huge amount. Clean water... Workers rights... Clean air the work the EU has done in protecting the environment and health and safety and work is not to be ignored.

I agree that there's serious issues with the EU but then it's a large complex bureaucracy.

Bit to say it's 'done nothing for us' is inaccurate. It's has many far reaching implications on trade, banking, social security, defence and environmental issues.



Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 19:10
I think it's a sighn of the times that there has been so much improvements. All the scandinavian countries and others have improved to a greater degree in or out of the EU.
It is a huge bearacratic nightmare that costs a fortune.


Posted By: Mike Noc
Date Posted: 28 May 16 at 22:05
Originally posted by ob1 ob1 wrote:

It's done a huge amount. Clean water... Workers rights... Clean air the work the EU has done in protecting the environment and health and safety and work is not to be ignored.

I agree that there's serious issues with the EU but then it's a large complex bureaucracy.

Bit to say it's 'done nothing for us' is inaccurate. It's has many far reaching implications on trade, banking, social security, defence and environmental issues.



Bit like the Romans then. LOL


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'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 29 May 16 at 10:49
In or out.

For in NI has had hand outs but no where near as much as Southern Ireland where they built roads to no where. I do work for some of our politicians and it's not a gravy train but a gold train. The ability to import and export in Europe is nice. European free trade, working time directive, human rights (if it was applied correctly) are a benefit.

Down side, cost, no cuts or austratuary in the parliament or process, no job cuts there? We can't kick out undesirables, we signed up to a common market not common laws, unelected officials, imposed standards which we have no input to, money squandered on two parliaments traipsing back and forth, a currency system under extreme duress Euro, countries who want the benefits but don't collect taxes, others preach the rules but ignore the them themselves France, Itlay, Greece. No jurnoulaist has ever gone round Europe to see what each country offers the asylum seeker? Why do we pay child benefit for children not in the UK? The U.K. has always helped the oppressed but when the UK promise aid they pay, allot of the rest of Europe offer but don't stump up the cash.

We are in and out of houses every day and we see older people who have worked all there lives and paid who now struggle to survive but economic migrants blow in, want free health, schooling, housing. My niece grew up with my sister in law with two sons, one daughter and husband in a two bedroom house whilst she and husband worked. When she needed to move out asked the council for somewhere, anywhere was told it might take 10 years on the list but one bedroom flats in the same street where being handed out 2-3 times a month to new arrivals from inside Europe and outside.

We send economic aid to others in Europe and to Indian and Pakistan but our own health service is in melt down. We have outsiders come in to take ill to get surgery and frig off, the health service needs to ask for credit card before surgery like they do in Europe. You can't believe any politician they are professional liars,Blair (wmd), Major (affair), Corbin(supports terrorist), Cameron(will control borders).
I think Boris accurate in that someone in 39-45 had the same idea in Germany albeit by suits and back room deals as opposed to bullets and bombs.

Spain and Portgural don't follow fishery policies but Europe does dam all, out blast the fuckers out of the water and impound like Austraila does. The ozzies have the right idea and for those half baked yanks demand they now must buy a visa to enter the UK.

Norway, Denmark, Sweeden, Switerland economies have not died by being out of Europe?

All the ones saying stay are from the top 20% of wealth so the problems Europe brings they can afford it, no housing probs etc.

That's my views no doubt won't please everyone but hey we are meant to be a democercery with free speech?


Posted By: Mike Noc
Date Posted: 06 Jun 16 at 21:58
I have real concerns that leaving the EU may cost us in jobs and prosperity in the future, but looking at the current way the EU is being run, and the direction it is taking, I've just voted out.

For me better we try and determine our own future. 

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'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 07 Jun 16 at 07:08
Look at Ireland they got out and rejoined if it all goes tits up!

I love Mr Cameron who says immigration can be controlled inside the EU, wtf has he been doing the last five years then? Is he only now going to start and control immigration but hasn't bothered for the last five years? If he was an employee he'd been fired!

We had toady over here yesterday, as popular as a plague carrier, George.

Doom doom, but never said dam all what the EU does for us? What we pay in and then get out?

In the heating sector last year we got shafted with ERP, 15% increase on boilers 2% efficiency gain whoooo! Look at our friends VW and vehicle testing. The figures were as straight as MP expenses, EU didn't find the problem as it wasn't in the pig trough to notice. Mirror, seats removed, skinny wheels, slip stream a van ahead to cook the books all to EU standards.

We have a secure mental unit here for 8 adults, 5 are our European friends we can't send home and one yank as he cant afford treatment in good old USA and 2 places for locals?

Locals can't get kids into local schools here as our European friends claim tax credits/benefits so get a pick of primary school ahead of locals who were born and bred here.

Others leave kids back home with grand parents and ship back family allowance which supports grand parents and kids.

What other EU country would allow u to do that!?

There will be downsides yes but some small degree of common sense needs applied some the EU seems to lack totally!

The EU is the slowest growing contenant in the world excluding antartica.

We have a large number of EU Criminals here we can't ship home, human rights! Tax payer funded her majesty hotel!

We need to vet these ones arriving and if a blotted record return to sender!

It's the bankers that are shitting themselves and all the white collar cushy job suits supported in EU quango schemes.

I love our one border cutter in the channel trying to pick out people smugglers among the shipping traffic, no chance.







Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 07 Jun 16 at 07:22
If we stay in the EU we can't change our vat rate.

The 5% on heating controls, insulation energy efficiency EU told us we weren't allowed to do that. Or 0% on refurbing derelict housing to provide social housing.

Scrap one EU parliament, 25% in staffing, 35% cut in Mep's 50% cut in there expenses then I would consider they would be better inline with were the average European has felt in the down turn.

Bloated money consuming monster for little benefit with no accountability to anyone.



Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 07 Jun 16 at 20:01
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

So what does that prove.
Being in has done very little for us.


I didn't post the info to prove anything, merely to highlight and compare some of the differences with other countries in the EU.

Make of it what you will but you appear by your response to suggest the EU has done nothing for us. It couldn't possibly be down to the UK government both past and present making an absolute clusterfeck of our rich and diverse resources whilst other countries have aspired to try and progress and better themselves.

Germany working towards being able to power itself by renewable energy. Note that Germany has a large population with high energy demands and is a land locked country so no offshore wind or tidal / wave generation, it's also fairly flat so limited hydro potential.
Portugal just managed 4 consecutive days on renewables.

Meanwhile our current Conservative UK government pulls renewable subsidies to stifle the development of the industry and commits to Chinese built nuclear power and fracking y o r k shire.
There's a reason we call them toxic tories in Scotland... Dead


I see there are now 20 Police forces investigating 30 Conservative MPs for electoral fraud.

Edit: And I see Labour have just voted with the Conservatives to pass the IP Bill.
C'mon tae fook English citizens, wakey wakey, there's 55 million of you and you can't put together a decent political party to represent you and protect your rights.






Posted By: Aidan
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 08:35
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:


C'mon tae fook English citizens, wakey wakey, there's 55 million of you and you can't put together a decent political party to represent you and protect your rights.


And as for the Welsh, only 5 million and they still can't get it together to vote in a government, whilst they still bicker about anything, often about who's great grandfather once voted for someone different; the most castled country on the planet, for a reason. The locals here vote Tory even though the government has just effectively imposed cuts of £1000 per head of population on the largest county with the lowest density population in the whole UK; once the eastern european's take over it will be better Clap
and the sheep won't look so worried Wink


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Aidan Talbot, gearboxes for watercooled engines, 4, 5 speed and syncro front and rear rebuilt. 01691 648011, 07817 377938....www.aidantalbot.co.uk


Posted By: silverbullet
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 11:59
Here's a thought. The Yanks need us to stay in because keeping GB in the EU is their open door to Europe for TTIP (the mechanism that will be used by the likes of Monsanto and Bayer to dump their GM food products and all the rest of it over here) and they have been publicly seen to be applying some pretty heavy leverage to that effect.
I don't want to be a part of letting that happen, I don't want unelected eurocrats telling me how straight a parsnip should be, I don't want suspect GM food on the shelves, I don't want UK farmers continuing to dump tons of edible produce every day because it doesn't fit the standardized packaging lines.
I would rather put up with the minor inconvenience of importing/exporting goods with a little more paperwork (like dealing with the USA right now)

We never had the Euro anyway, so what would really change? Remember using the services in Luxembourg in the pre-Euro days when you could pay in multiple currencies?

Upside: strength in unity.
Downside: hidebound by bureacracy.

I was a stayer, but I am drifting toward leaving.


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Have I missed anything?


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 12:08
Throwing food away is less to do with the EU and more to do with supermarkets not wanting to try and sell us food that doesn't fit their standardised product marketing. Lots of people sell the ugly stuff in this county, mainly under the organic banner for more money. It's about consumers in this country standing up for themselves and saying no, rather than the EU.......

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: ELVIS
Date Posted: 08 Jun 16 at 12:14
Originally posted by silverbullet silverbullet wrote:

The Yanks need us to stay in because keeping GB in the EU is their open door to Europe 

I was a stayer, but I am drifting toward leaving.

Yarp to that chap. Also strongest 'pro' staging post for them to Police/restore order/bomb anywhere in Europe/Western Asia/north africa, you get my driftLOL

I am still wanting qualified facts. We read hear shite in the papers/news/radio etc etc . One side will say it will cost us £1k/person/year by leaving the opposing side will say we gain £1k/person/year. 

Recession/strength of pound/import-export etc etc we all know the list.

I appreciate no one actually knows the figures as they can only be forecast. And again, one side will say the treasury forecasts are always incorrect and the Bank of England is usually more accurate.

Then all the above is regurgitated in pubs/forums/FB etc etc.

All a bag of shite IMHO.

No one actually knows, it just depends on how much one is persuaded/susceptible  by/to spin/supposition/lies/fear.







Might move to Poland after though, can live like a fucking King on my Pension over thereLOL 


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Www.justgiving.com/ELVIS-SUMMERS



Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 00:12
Good on u Elivs.

You lucky basket weaver, us younger models on here will never get a pension.

We have seen section 75 take what was an excellent pension, defined benefits for me and my employees which was a 108% funded on a 1.6 billon fund to now with the new hair brained scheme from government and EU a 452 million short fall.

I am a sole trader and did the right thing years ago, private medical, paid leave, death in service, and a good pension scheme. Now if I live long enough to retire and the scheme falls short the pension regulator could knock my door looking 250k to top up the pot. Me and others this change in the law has rendered my business to sell as worthless.

We signed up to a common market, at no time were the voter given their ability to have there say on no borders, free travel, were our vat tariffs are imposed by Europe, there court triumphs ours, we have to fund a gravy train of unelected white collar thieves whose accounts have not been signed off by auditors for ten years?

I have no problem with the working time directive before I am accused as a true blue, I work with unions through the trade bodies I sit on. But when I see some of the absolute hair brained standards coming down, no consultation no means to affect a change.

From the Common Market there has been mission creep, just like war, first advisors, then training, then forward air spotters, then mentoring in the field before we send infantry, this is how the EU have been spreading like a cancer and there fear is if GB votes leave it might wake up other EU citizens to question what they pay for and what is happening. GB might derail the gravy train.

We watch Itlay, France, Spain, Germany all ignore decisions from the court with no sanctions but Britian is stupid enough to follow half baked reg?

The parliament itself consumes way too much money, it needs cut down to size, becomes accountable, balance the books and root out corruption and stop wandering back and forth across Europe increasing Global warming with the shit they talk and their travel.

The original objective was good but it has been perverted for the few.


Posted By: randolph57
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 04:50
Couldn't have put it better- work for a Dutch company and the 'Locals' seem to have the same opinion of the EU and are privately envious of our voting chance. Hopefully it won't be f.....d up by the London centric lot.


Posted By: timmythedog
Date Posted: 09 Jun 16 at 08:17
i`m staying in as I heard  they will try to confiscate my VW`s. Confused 

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Syncro doka td
T4 Multivan Generation, 151
89 Caravelle Exclusive 2.1
Caravelle GL AFN tdi
53 plate T4 Panel.888 special x factor.
88 DG Panel(uncut)
calypso Atlantic pop.


Posted By: silverbullet
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 07:42
I was watching "The Last Leg" last night and Jeremy Corbyn spoke the most sense on the subject I have heard so far. No scaremongering, just reasoned thinking.
Yes he is an old skool lefty and I am not, but his argument for remaining deslite all of the EU's failings makes me think that we should do just that.

Change of direction based on "Any questions" just now:

*The EU is pro-TTIP and Camerons govt wont say no to the USA so we need to leave the EU and tell them to poke it.
So now I am a leaver*.

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Have I missed anything?


Posted By: weegaz22
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 09:08
Going by my "man in the street poll" (in other words asking everyone what they are voting) it seems upwards of 90% of folk i have asked have voted are are intending to vote to leave, haven't had to much of the "stay in" crowd.

My opinion is that the EU over the years has had some good things about it, its probably helped give us better workers rights and pay, just think back to the carry on films when people went on strike every 5 mins, in saying that its also had some right clusterf*cks of laws/decisions/over regulation put through to go along with it.

Being in the EU kinda gives England a taste of what its like to be Scottish, getting dumb politicians and laws you never voted for, now you know why we tried to leave..


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 13:36
I thinkk a lot of the good things put down to the EU would have happened anyway, workers rights etc.
It's the way the world is developing, look at the poorer Countries even they are progressing, India some of the African Countries etc.
The EU did have good points but it's getting to big for its boots.


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 13:50
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

I thinkk a lot of the good things put down to the EU would have happened anyway, workers rights etc.
It's the way the world is developing, look at the poorer Countries even they are progressing, India some of the African Countries etc.
The EU did have good points but it's getting to big for its boots.


Have you not seen anything that our lovely Tory government does for us? We still have plenty of people that live like this is a third world country, who struggle to feed their families. That's down to the people we vote into power, not the EU.

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:03
Originally posted by ob1 ob1 wrote:

WHS ^^^ I'm sure the EU has massive flaws and is far from perfect.

But I don't fancy being left in the hands of the Brexot politicians if we leave without the EU policies to protect us from whatever evil schemes they'd come up with left to their own devices.


I didn't realise we could vote in Brexot politicians, have I missed out.


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:09
If the out crowd win, Cameron will be pushed to resign, and Boris will be looking to take over, or did you think he actually gives a shit about 'us' and he's not looking to further his career?

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:15
Originally posted by T3Panel T3Panel wrote:

If the out crowd win, Cameron will be pushed to resign, and Boris will be looking to take over, or did you think he actually gives a shit about 'us' and he's not looking to further his career?

Has Cameron given a shit about you , because I am f...ed if he has about me.


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:18
That wasn't an endorsement for Cameron, see my previous post about the Tory's and current state of this country.

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:25
This is about in or out the fact that the Torys were voted in is another issue, somebody voted them in.
I do not like the idea of the united states of the EU with the strongest member being Merkels bunch.


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:31
But unfortunately the majority of people can't seperate the two. Most of the arguments going around for the out vote are nothing to do with Europe, and all down to this countries governments, past and present.

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:33
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:


I do not like the idea of the united states of the EU with the strongest member being Merkels bunch.


Equally, would you rather be on the inside in such a scenario, or on the outside. If we are outside they can do what they like, and there is nothing we can do about it.

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:40
The majority of politicians want in, they are feathering their nest.
As I see it do you want to be told how to run your country by Brussels or do you want to take control.
I believe there will be pain before pleasure and in the short term we will suffer but I believe it will be worth it.
Vote. Out


Posted By: T3Panel
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 14:52
Politicians have been feathering their nests since they were invented, and will continue to do so at our expense whatever happens. I want to be part of a global community, not pull up the drawbridge and pretend the problems on the rest of the planet which we are just as responsible for as anyone else don't exist.
I'm already feeling the pain, as thanks to this little referendum the housing market has ground to a halt, and with a baby on the way, we are stuck where we are. I'll be voting in.

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1987 T3 Panel 2.0 T3i!


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 15:01
Originally posted by T3Panel T3Panel wrote:

Politicians have been feathering their nests since they were invented, and will continue to do so at our expense whatever happens. I want to be part of a global community, not pull up the drawbridge and pretend the problems on the rest of the planet which we are just as responsible for as anyone else don't exist.
I'm already feeling the pain, as thanks to this little referendum the housing market has ground to a halt, and with a baby on the way, we are stuck where we are. I'll be voting in.

I want to be part of a global community. Not just a Europeane.
Think bigger not smaller.


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 17:03
All politicians want to be in the EU, when they feck it up they blame the EU!

Best scape goat ever.


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 17:35
Originally posted by Alonline Alonline wrote:

All politicians want to be in the EU, when they feck it up they blame the EU!

Best scape goat ever.

And we need a lot more of them.


Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 18:58
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

I want to be part of a global community. Not just a Europeane.
Think bigger not smaller.


Eh? But you just said you would vote to leave the EU. Confused
Confucius say: Think bigger by thinking smaller... LOL

I see some of the Engerland footy fans are trashing Marseille... Way to go endearing themselves to our Euro neighbours. Clap
Not into bloodsports myself, but it may be interesting from an evolutionary point of view watching some overweight lager swilling imbeciles biting off more than they can chew with the French riot police.


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 19:38
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

I want to be part of a global community. Not just a Europeane.
Think bigger not smaller.


Eh? But you just said you would vote to leave the EU. Confused
Confucius say: Think bigger by thinking smaller... LOL

I see some of the Engerland footy fans are trashing Marseille... Way to go endearing themselves to our Euro neighbours. Clap
Not into bloodsports myself, but it may be interesting from an evolutionary point of view watching some overweight lager swilling imbeciles biting off more than they can chew with the French riot police.

When I was at school global meant the globe, ie. the world.
Eu is Europe.


Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 11 Jun 16 at 20:34
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

When I was at school global meant the globe, ie. the world.
Eu is Europe.


Indeed, but there are various levels or tiers that need representation in this world.

Therefore there are structures within societies ranging from local community councils, to regional councils, to national governments, to Europe, to worldwide.
The system won't really work efficiently if you want to complain about someone's dog shitting next to your front gate if you have to complain to the one world government to sort it out out for you.

I note you stay in Surrey. You most likely have very different concerns compared to someone living in a poverty stricken inner city area in Glasgow. Do you think your concerns are more important and should override those of others, or do you acknowledge that their concerns should also have equal representation?



 




Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 00:36
The EU is not interested in local polatics only large problems.


Posted By: clift_d
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 03:18
For anyone who's interested in some reading, there's a very good dispassionate view of the whole UK / EU sovereignty thing in this  https://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/publications/research/2016-05-09-britain-eu-sovereignty-myth-niblett-final.pdf" rel="nofollow - Chatham House paper here.

Personally, I've always taught my kids that they should play fair, cooperate, share and that they shouldn't unfairly judge people. But all I'm hearing from the Brexit crowd these days is hyperbole and scaremongering about the 'outsider', and how it would be much better if the UK just took its toys and went off to play in a corner on its own. I always thought we were better than that.

Screw them - my vote is to remain.


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1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro


Posted By: jason k
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 09:11
Mine too.



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Bcs shallowest surf award winner 2006
camperjam 2011 chug and tug team member
aberdare. south wales
newest member of karmann korner
no longer the only moderator to manage to ban himself





Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 10:49
...


Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 10:53
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

Originally posted by ob1 ob1 wrote:

WHS ^^^ I'm sure the EU has massive flaws and is far from perfect.

But I don't fancy being left in the hands of the Brexot politicians if we leave without the EU policies to protect us from whatever evil schemes they'd come up with left to their own devices.


I didn't realise we could vote in Brexot politicians, have I missed out.


Yes you did. http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections.html" rel="nofollow - Euroelections


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 11:44
Originally posted by ob1 ob1 wrote:

Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

Originally posted by ob1 ob1 wrote:

WHS ^^^ I'm sure the EU has massive flaws and is far from perfect.

But I don't fancy being left in the hands of the Brexot politicians if we leave without the EU policies to protect us from whatever evil schemes they'd come up with left to their own devices.


I didn't realise we could vote in Brexot politicians, have I missed out.


Yes you did. http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps/european_elections.html" rel="nofollow - Euroelections


How does that help us vote Brexot politicians, that's EU politicians.


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 12:14
They might loose a few pounds when fed on French prison food?

I wonder can they claim asylum. In France?


Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 15:06
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

How does that help us vote Brexot politicians, that's EU politicians.


If one side or group puts forward a stance or position that is then rejected by the voters, they are effectively in an untenable position, so they often step aside and hand control to the side that wins.
So in this upcoming EU referendum, if there is an out vote, then Cameron and Osborne who campaigned for in are toast, and you end up with Bojo and Gove amongst others.

If you are so concerned about not getting a chance to vote and choose who represents and rules over you, then maybe you should focus your attention closer to home at the almost 900 unelected persons sitting in the House of Lords...




Posted By: clift_d
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 15:08
... or the frankly p**s poor 'first-past-the-post' electoral system.

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1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro


Posted By: danstervan
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 15:47
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

... or the frankly p**s poor 'first-past-the-post' electoral system.


Indeed, and oddly those that gain power through that system are never to quick to reform it.

Up here in Scotland we have a slightly fairer system with a constituency and a regional list vote to elect our MSPs. But it still doesn't stop utter dross or those that have previously been comprehensively rejected by the electorate getting a seat though.
That voting system was implemented when the Scottish Parliament was re-convened to make it virtually impossible to gain a majority. However a reasonably politically switched on electorate enabled the SNP to break the system in the previous parliament session, and just coming up short of a majority again in the last recent election.

Next year we have the Council elections that use a different again STV (single transferable vote) system, which also needs careful consideration of voting strategies to try and clear out some more of the charlatans.



Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 19:46
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

How does that help us vote Brexot politicians, that's EU politicians.


If one side or group puts forward a stance or position that is then rejected by the voters, they are effectively in an untenable position, so they often step aside and hand control to the side that wins.
So in this upcoming EU referendum, if there is an out vote, then Cameron and Osborne who campaigned for in are toast, and you end up with Bojo and Gove amongst others.

If you are so concerned about not getting a chance to vote and choose who represents and rules over you, then maybe you should focus your attention closer to home at the almost 900 unelected persons sitting in the House of Lords...




So what happens when all the parties want vote in.
We the normal people have no choice who becomes a Lord, so I really don't see what I can do about that. Be it demacratic or not.


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 12 Jun 16 at 21:24
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

... or the frankly p**s poor 'first-past-the-post' electoral system.


Yeah they make us over use proportational representation in NI but won't have it on the mainland as neither conservatives or labour would get a majority.

Yeah we get terrorist as politicians, who says crime and murder doesn't pay?

We don't even have an opposition in the nuts house at Stormont!

They cannot sort a budget so they debate the refusal of a bakery to make a cake with pro gay logo instead! Utter waste of good oxygen! The only place you get paid not to do what you were sent there to do!


Haven't seen such a lively debate as this on here in years


Posted By: Kryten
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 19:09
The way I see it is that with the rise of the SNP and bad press and constant belittlement of Corbyn we are looking at years of Tory government, For that reason alone I will be voting IN.
I Just do not trust the Tories to look after the best interests of the majority. 
You are on this planet for a short while, There should be a balance between work & life and I for one envy the lifestyle of many European nations. 


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Twist my nipple nuts and send me to Alaska.


Posted By: donecan
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 19:42
^ Well said.


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 20:52
Originally posted by Kryten Kryten wrote:

The way I see it is that with the rise of the SNP and bad press and constant belittlement of Corbyn we are looking at years of Tory government, For that reason alone I will be voting IN.
I Just do not trust the Tories to look after the best interests of the majority. 
You are on this planet for a short while, There should be a balance between work & life and I for one envy the lifestyle of many European nations. 

But surely by voting in Camron will think you are agreeing whith his policies, older retiement, cuts in NHS, privatisation of NHS parts etc. how is that helping the working class that want a work leisure balance.


Posted By: Kryten
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 22:18
I am pretty sure if we voted out, The Tories will be looking at dismantling many workers rights that the EU have put in place.

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Twist my nipple nuts and send me to Alaska.


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 22:41
I think with the way the trade unions are being treated and the advent of zero hour contracts etc the EU is the least of our problems. Look at the changes in contacts in the NHS all done within EU rules.


Posted By: clift_d
Date Posted: 16 Jun 16 at 23:16
But none of that is the fault of the EU.

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1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 09:30
I didn't say it was, all I am saying is that they are doing it anyway so don't rely on the EU to stop it.


Posted By: clift_d
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 11:12
So that's your reason to vote leave is it - that the EU hasn't been able to stop all the bad things that this government is doing?


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1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro


Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 11:38
I've completely made my mind up. There's nothing you can say that I'm actually interested in, listening to, or will change my fixed opinions.

But I'd like an argument please.


Posted By: caron666
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 17:30
I'm voting out.

Or In.

No actually out.

Nope I am voting in.




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If it's got tits or wheels sooner or later you're going to get problems.


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 23:23
I would love the European work life balance but we are the poor bastards knocking our pans in to fund all our lazy non tax paying Southern Europeans.

Greece, Italy, Romainia which we are throwing money at.

Even the Germans are loosing patience.


Posted By: clift_d
Date Posted: 17 Jun 16 at 23:41
Er, no.

We're not in the Eurozone so we don't contribute to Eurozone bailouts. Those countries won't be getting much from us.

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1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro


Posted By: Alonline
Date Posted: 18 Jun 16 at 08:19


When we did not go into the Euro we were finished, no trade, doom, gloom! We tried to be fixed to the Euro but it could not keep pace with sterling and we had to let go and float away.

Ireland, Greece, Italy, Romaina get out more than they contribute due to poor economy , infrastructure upgrades on highways etc. Go to Donegal and they have smashing highways to no where paid for by EU. We have had to put money into the IMF deal although no were as much as Germany. Just watch they will want debt write off next. They refuse to balance their economies, collect taxes, want the easy life, early retirement. Spain and France don't follow fishery quotas only UK, our fishing fleets have been virtually wiped out . I seen Farage heckled that the UK lands more fish but we are surrounded by the sea were France and Spain share the area, we have the Atlantic if we did land more fish there would be something wrong. Did you ever watch Panorama were they attempted to film in France and Spain what was being landed, they were attacked as it would have shown banded fish being landed, their governments turn a blind eye, our have to throw back dead fish, barmy.

We seen the spouting about ferry standards and safety after the Zeebruger and Estonia loss, our ferries are still not to the EU standard, were is there enforcement team who jump up and down about fish but it's ok if our ferries sink.

Motorways from Newry to Dublin, Dublin to Cork paid for by EU. We get dam all.

We can't get a motorway or dual carriage way to link belfast to Derry and only got the motor way to Newry 10 years ago and still single carriage way from dungannon to Eniskillen or Omagh.

We are still battling to keep 5% vat on energy saving insulation and heating controls to reduce fuel poverty for the poorest in our society and make the tax payers money go further to help more, EU want 20% vat to fund the fat cat in Bruessels and millionaire life styles. How is that the EU helping the vulnerable, we want a 0% vat on fuel poverty schemes. We want 0% on new boilers and energy saving installations to make the UK more energy friendly as we do not have the nuclear programme of France, Brown Coal of Germany and wind turbines. EU refused.   

I have been into houses where in winter the mother or father is making the decision to eat or heat, painful to see, these are working poor natives of our shores, not a blow in claiming asylum or an ecomnic migrant working and sending the child benefit paid from our taxes back into Europe to support children that are not here even if these alleged children exist? I have seen whacky standards lumped on our industry and manfacturers ERP example which doubled the cost of domestic heating pumps and increased boilers by 15% to give a 2% efficiency increase. I agree make them more efficient but the pay back on cost is between 10-12 years?

We seen the Green Deal, RHI, LCBP all born out of EU standards and directives delivered nothing to customer, manfacturer, trade but syphon off funds.

We constantly see the driver being hammered, EU emmission standards, these standards are then tested in a way and figures published that bear no resemblance to how the vehicle is used so is a total waste of time. We need a standard but they are too busy taking brown envelopes from manfacturers to turn a blind eye. For once the Americans outed VW antics. Seats removed from vans, special tyres, no spare wheel, mirrors removed, slip streaming a van in front to make their EU standard test look good. It is perverse!

In Europe and main land uk you have an alternative of trains, we hardly have a Hornby set here, more like one of your Sideings. If we want to travel in Europe mainland can Chunnel we have to use the unsafe cattle tubs or fly and pay airport taxes.

I am not saying if we bail out it will be a bed of roses but at least the guy at the steering wheel has a chance to steer without a guy in the back trying to steer in a different direction.


Posted By: ob1
Date Posted: 18 Jun 16 at 09:39
You're blaming the EU for our crap
Governments.

If we leave the EU we will face years under the conservatives lead by Borris, Ian Ducan Smith and Gove.

You think things are crap now! Those three will privatise NHS, Education and the police and fire for starters. Then they'll carry on selling the rest of England to the Chinese.

If you think a vote to leave is a vote for freedom and democracy you're misguided.


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 18 Jun 16 at 10:11
Originally posted by ob1 ob1 wrote:



You think things are crap now! Those three will privatise NHS, Education and the police and fire for starters. Then they'll carry on selling the rest of England to the Chinese.

If you think a vote to leave is a vote for freedom and democracy you're misguided.

What's Cameron doing at the moment then.


Posted By: clift_d
Date Posted: 18 Jun 16 at 11:13
Re our fishing industry, we have the most profitable in the EU, with the second largest quota allocation. Quotas get distributed by the UK government and our's gives only 6% of the quota to the small independent boats that comprise 80% of the fishing fleet, and gives the lion's share to a few big industrial producers. One figure I read suggested around 3/4 was given to just three big companies - one of whom provided boats for Farage's jaunt on the Thames the other day. Fishing is hurting in the UK because of quota mismanagement in this country and fishing limits that are needed across the EU to manage devastated stocks. The same hurt is being felt in fishing fleets in other countries but that doesn't figure in the UKIP publicity. If we don't manage stocks the we will see a total collapse like was seen with herring stocks in the early 20th century. Would any of this improve as a result of leaving they EU? I doubt it. We might see a race to the bottom that destroys fish stocks. We certainly won't get total control over a 200 mile limit for fishing due to historical fishing rights agreements that will kick back in.

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1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro


Posted By: silverbullet
Date Posted: 19 Jun 16 at 19:13
My biggest beef with remaining is having to basically condone the self-appointed and unelected EU Parliament parasites. All 40,000 of them if the figures are correct.
If the UK does remain, then out Govt should move to get other nations on-side to push for a Europe-wide referendum on reforming (or even abolishing) the EU parliament itself.
I can no longer see much of an argument for the UK leaving beyond the purely emotive i.e. loss of Sterling and immigration paranioa.
Our services are only oveloaded because of the number of work-shy parasites with their open hands outstretched and our worldwide reputation for handing out free money and housing.

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Have I missed anything?


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 19 Jun 16 at 19:35
Originally posted by silverbullet silverbullet wrote:

My biggest beef with remaining is having to basically condone the self-appointed and unelected EU Parliament parasites. All 40,000 of them if the figures are correct.
If the UK does remain, then out Govt should move to get other nations on-side to push for a Europe-wide referendum on reforming (or even abolishing) the EU parliament itself.
I can no longer see much of an argument for the UK leaving beyond the purely emotive i.e. loss of Sterling and immigration paranioa.
Our services are only oveloaded because of the number of work-shy parasites with their open hands outstretched and our worldwide reputation for handing out free money and housing.

I believe that the government will see it as a vote of confidence and nothing will improve.


Posted By: sportwomble
Date Posted: 19 Jun 16 at 21:44
Would rather regret coming out and giving it a go than wonder what might have been when my kids are sharing allegiance to the U.S.E.!
I am and will always be English first but will stand and die by my fellow Bits, come on people my Grandfather didn't fight off the beach at Dunkirk then go back and get shot by a Jerry sniper for me to hand all over No way!

Cry God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'
(I'm for out by the way)

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Underground overground


Posted By: silverbullet
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 08:07
^^^ that just about sums up the extent of the leave campaign in my eyes.

Driving a German made van, aren't you?

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Have I missed anything?


Posted By: BeJay
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 08:34
Originally posted by silverbullet silverbullet wrote:

^^^ that just about sums up the extent of the leave campaign in my eyes.

Should've gone to specsavers then.

Originally posted by silverbullet silverbullet wrote:

Driving a German made van, aren't you?

People were driving VW's etc long before the EU, (yes we actually traded with other countries without any problem before the inception of the EU, but maybe you're just too young to remember!) so what the f**k has that got to do with the in or out debate?

and just in case anyone's still unsure of which way I'm voting it's  OUT. Thumbs Up


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NIL ILLIGITIMUS CARBORUNDUM


Posted By: sportwomble
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 09:41


Driving a German made van, aren't you?[/QUOTE]

No,
I sold it,


Too get back at Angela Merkel.
That will learn her!

Google "Ivan Hirst"

I can be friends with you without having to join your club!


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Underground overground


Posted By: nicq
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 10:45
Originally posted by silverbullet silverbullet wrote:

^^^ that just about sums up the extent of the leave campaign in my eyes.

Driving a German made van, aren't you?

I have a Toyota as well but I don't want the Country run buy Japan.
What a silly comment.


Posted By: Tim Hamnett
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 11:46
Just look at the public figures and interests wanting out, Do you realy think they are on YOUR side?
The nasty right of the tories and xenophobic fringe groups given a voice far larger than they have ever warranted, by an ill thought through manifesto commitment by Cameron to keep his party in one piece.
Cameron is set to leave shortly, and the result will dictate which Tory clique takes power.
If things aren't bad enough as they are under this complete failure of a regime, what do you think you will get from the rabid right.
There is plenty wrong with the EU no doubt, and reform is being demanded by many nations within it. Britain will shortly be taking over the presidency and be in an ideal position with an in vote to lead that change.
I want my kids to have the freedom of Europe as they grow up and not be stuck in a country controlled by a tiny minority of corporate interests while the nation is fed a diet of pre war wasn't it great when we had an empire and the foreigners knew their place poison.

There you have it, argument over, vote with your brains.Wink


Posted By: traversd
Date Posted: 20 Jun 16 at 13:14
Worth a watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y


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Vanfest 2011 - Skittles Vodka
Camperjam 2011 tug n chug team
Camperjam 2013 - Lost to the Bodybuilders, but delivered in a Syncro
Tough Mudder - Fried Piggy For - Charity

So, Rae is a girl then yeah.



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