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Over-revving when changing gear

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URL: http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=57934
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Topic: Over-revving when changing gear
Posted By: Kitawagon
Subject: Over-revving when changing gear
Date Posted: 17 Sep 10 at 22:14
Hi all, wonder if anyone could help. We've had our T5 130 LWB (late 2004) for 6 months now and I'm starting to understand the frustrations of so many on the forum. I love the van to bits when all is well, but that ain't alot of the time. At present, something else strange (separate to a nagging feeling of a weaker than it should be turbo associated with a flutter pre 2000 revs) has started to happen, that is when I accelerate moderately hard (or if the van is heavily loaded and engine is working harder than normal) when i change up gear in the normal way, the revs do not drop as you'd expect but continue to rise slightly, as if I didn't fully take my foot of the accelerator. I'm worried that this might be linked to a deterioating clutch, however I haven't noticed any slippage under acceleration.

Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated. I've also thought that this could perhaps be linked to a potentially failing turbo?

Other background is that the van was recently serviced and had a turbo pressure pipe replaced. The van ran lilke new for the follwing 700 miles but after a long motorway run it seemed as if the post service tightness and oomph of the engine has gone. There is non of the pre service air leakage sound from the turbo, but still a flutter/tinkloing around 1800rpm. Other stats include a newly discovered judder when setting off in first with low revs when the engine is cold.

Cheers again

Kitawagon.



Replies:
Posted By: Liquidfreak
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 02:09
If it is holding revs, try cleaning the MAF sensor in the air filter box.

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2004 VW T5 Panel Van T30 2.5 130 AXD Engine


Posted By: T5 TDI
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 08:22
As you mentioned it is possible that the turbo is causing the problem by leaking oil into the intake under hard acceleration.  The engine then runs on this oil.  You ought to get it checked soon because if it gets worse it could lead to the engine being wrecked as it 'runs away' uncontrollably.  Do you see any smoke when accelerating?   

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2004 2.5 174


Posted By: fantasam
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 09:06
Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

As you mentioned it is possible that the turbo is causing the problem by leaking oil into the intake under hard acceleration.  The engine then runs on this oil.  You ought to get it checked soon because if it gets worse it could lead to the engine being wrecked as it 'runs away' uncontrollably.  Do you see any smoke when accelerating?   
 
Hmmm..., not sure this is a feasible explanation for the symptoms described. Once the engine starts to run on its own oil, the process is likely to be irreversible, ie the oil will continue to feed the combustion process and the engine speed will continue to increase rapidly until the engine suffers catastrophic mechnical failure.
 
Also, there will generally be evidence of oil in the intake system because the crankcase vents into it. 


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Man of few words, many farts


Posted By: T5 TDI
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 14:03
I agree that's the way it normally goes but if a tiny amount of oil mist is being sucked in I reckon it's possible.  Kitawagon did say the new turbo hose fixed it for a while, it could be that this had the effect of lessening the level of oil contamination of the intake (if it is contaminated).   I think it would be a good idea to get it checked just in case.  (bearing in mine the horrendoes cost of an engine.)
 
Kita- a thin film of oil coating the inside of the hoses is normal, puddles are not.  Otherwise you need to get a diagnostic check.  Look out for Throttle pedal position sensor faults and coolant temp sensor faults. 


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2004 2.5 174


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 14:26
Hi all, thanks for the replies. You know my gut feeling says the turbo is starting to play up, but I love the idea of simply cleaning the MAF sensor and all being sorted. Take it this is something pretty simple to do?

ANyhow, this morning when started from cold and I began my drive away (always carefully) a very subtle but new air rushing noise can be heard (guessing from turbo but could be anything). I guess its the turbo 'deciding' whether to fully kick in, but doesn't seem right. Once engine is warmed this is no more. Driving the van normally this morning the revs being held did not reoccur, but applying slightly more effort will surely cause it to repeat. Worried. I really need someone who knows what they are doing to honestly have a look at it. I'm concerned that if I take it to a VW dealer then they will simply quote for a v. expensive new turbo, when frankly it could be anything. I need someone/ an indy garage/ ore trustworthy dealer who really knows their stuff and will give me geniune advice rather than perhaps stating whatever they wish as I fear a main dealer would. Ermm We're based just south of Sheffield and close to Cehsterfield also.  Any recommended places?

Oh yes, no I've not noticed any smoke under acceleration. Before the last serive there was certainly alot of black smoke/soot being coughed out under acceleration, but since the turbo pipe was replaced this is no longer evident. Other thoughts, are that there may be a very minor amount of coolant loss, however, this could have been due to the service guys refilling to only just above the level that causes the sensor to say low level on thje dash. I've topped this up but have an inkling it may come on again after a few weeks.

Something else I curious about is what sort of power speed etc. that is to be expected from this pre DPF 2.5 130 engine. It has the standard 16in steel wheels and tyres. Now on the motorway I seem to have transporters with the smaller engine (just the red i in Tdi) thrashing it passed me. Now I'm not up for ragging my van around, but having seen youtube footage of T5's with the 130 engine toppping out at close to 120mph (on speedo), this is something I could only dream of ever managing. Not that I'd want to, but we seem to struggle to maintain 85mph. This is not a speed I'm keen to do often but it serves as an illustration as to what our van seems able to do. Can anyone perhaps indicate what they'd expect a regular serviced and problem free 2.5 130 to be able to manage without too many dramas. This will hopefully let me know whether ours really is struggling for power..

Cheers again  everyone...








Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 14:36
Just to clarify the speed again. If I were to push the speed we could get it to 92mph (in Germany of course) as measure by the TomTom. But this feels like the living end! I would have thought these vans would cruise at 85mph if you wanted?


Posted By: Liquidfreak
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 14:45
My van had the problem of being very slow and over revving as you have described. I did 2 things, one was clean the MAF sensor, a real easy job to do, just get some carb cleaner onto the sensor, clean it all up and then leave the battery disconnected over night to clear the fault (you can do it with VAG-com if you have it). This certainly helped with the over revving and the speed. However, I also had a cracked turbo casing and I can't remember if this was a long time after or not. Go with the cheap option first!

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2004 VW T5 Panel Van T30 2.5 130 AXD Engine


Posted By: Martin 335d
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 14:56
There is something clearly up, I'm not a fan of cleaning MAFs out, I prefer to replace them, but I would certainly be starting there first

FWIW my 130 will cruise at 90 with a loaded car trailer on so struggling to maintain 85 Certainly points to something being very wrong

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T28 130 SWB Trendline, in green.


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 15:15
Right, perhaps I'm looking at a dirty MAF as well as a tottering turbo. Or perhaps the MAF could also effect the turbo performance? One thing for sure is that my power is down. Guess that'd good and bad news! I'm off to see if I can find the MAF...


Posted By: fantasam
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 15:25
Originally posted by Kitawagon Kitawagon wrote:


Something else I curious about is what sort of power speed etc. that is to be expected from this pre DPF 2.5 130 engine. It has the standard 16in steel wheels and tyres.
 
It sounds as though your van is a similar spec to mine as far as engine and wheels are concerned and I can easily (and often do 'cos I live near Germany and visit there fairly often) cruise at 100. It also has no problem keeping up with the average family saloon when pulling away from traffic lights or building up speed to join a motorway, etc. 
 
How many miles has the van done and why did the coolant needed to be topped up when the turbo pipe was replaced? There shouldn't have been any need to touch the coolant circuit to work on the turbo pipework.
 


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Man of few words, many farts


Posted By: fantasam
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 15:30
Originally posted by Kitawagon Kitawagon wrote:

I'm off to see if I can find the MAF...
There's  http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mass-Air-Flow-Meter-VW-Transporter-T5-2-5TDi-03-09-AXD-/400048596335?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5d24c1256f - one available on fleabay....., should give you an idea of what you're looking for.

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Man of few words, many farts


Posted By: T5 TDI
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 18:31
If you can hear a hissing noise (as distinct from a whistle or whine) as you rev it sounds like it could be a leak (again) on the turbo pipework. It takes the charged (compessed) air from the turbo to the inlet manifold via the intercooler.  An air leak there would certainly ruin the performance. The dealer has a tool to pressurise the pipework and the intercooler to check for leaks but simply looking at wiggling the pipes while the engine is running might be enough to show up a leak. 
 
My van would easily cruise at 90 or 100mph if I wanted to.  And yours should be the same. 


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2004 2.5 174


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 23:06
Hi all again. Sorry for late reply, only I had to walk home!Ouch All will be explained....

To answer your replies:

Fantasam. The van has just done 62,000 since late 2004. We also had a new water pump fitted (as we told there was a leak) so the coolant was flushed/refilled etc. You know the van felt great straight after the service and had the kind of oomph you'd expect (and you have), but this so rapidly went unfortunately. It was clear before the service that the turbo setup was leaking pressure in a big way (presumably from the pipe as we were told) due to the very loud hissing. However, the noises coming now are still the faint flutter just prior to 2000rpm at all times of use and the faint perhaps air leakage/stop starting sounds I described only with a cold engine. With reagrds to the MAF (many thanks for the link Smile), I found it, removed it and had a good look, all the plastics and housing seemed super clean to me but it is not really possible to see the metal. I was on my way to the garage to buy some carb cleaner/rubbing alcohol to do a clean when..........BOOM CRUNCH CRUCH GRIND ARGRHHHCry!

To T5TDI, if I propped up the bonnet and revved the engine, would the turbo kick in? Or does the turbo kick in under load (i.e. in gear and driving). If so then I think that's what I should have done and wiggled the pipes as you rightly suggested to see if any leak. Unfortunately I am unsure as to where the turbo/intercooler and pipework is Geek!

Anyhow all this is a little imaterial as whilst I headed to the garage and attempted to pull out from a side road on to a busy A road, boom and crunch, suddenly no driving force and instead a horrible crunching and grinding no matter what gear I chose. So a big problem, there's me covering both lanes, stuck. Jump out fortunately get both flows of traffic to stop without incident, someone manages to help push me back onto the side road and both a sigh of relief and swearing can begin! Censored Two hours later my dad has come to the rescue and helped two the fallen chariot back to the drive. Desparate! Now surely this is a total coincidence? My other half is not convinced I haven't managed to reck our pride and joy by fiddliong with the MAF! HAh, you have to laugh, but really what a terrible coincidence I explained Pinch. Nope she's not best pleaed.

So what could this latest more catastophic problem be? Clutch, Flywheel, Gearbox, driveshaft???? Who knows! The grinding seems to be coming from the front left mostly, but I'm not seeing sny drive from either wheel. Engine ignition and revving out of gear seems normal. Ivf engine of and placed in 5th gear, the van can be rolled backwards, no resistance, but the front left wheel does seem to click or hit a lsight notch every quarter turn....?? I did mention a new judder when the engine was cold and pulling away in 1st gear over the last couple of weeks, could this be related? Is it possible that the drive shaft (if thats the right term) to one of the front wheels has gone or does this sound more like a catastrophic gearbox or clutch failure?Cry

Sorry to drift this lack of power issue in to a total T5 meltdown! Hopefully this story will end happily, but as it stands I'm now not just keen to find a really decent VW mechanic near to Sheffield, but am in dire need!

Anyone with any further pointers on all this, your advice is really really appreciated. I'll endeavour to keep you posted on any developments and diagnostics etc. when I get it to a garage..

Cheers

Kitawagon..







Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 23:15
So, to clarify, does your van (with the engine running obviously) make bad/grinding noises: 
 
Only when its in gear and you release the clutch
 
or
 
All the time (doesnt have to be in gear)?
 
 


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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 23:20
Hi, the grinding noises only come when in gear with the engine running and foot off the clutch..


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 23:31
Its a driveshaft - well known fault
 
I`ve had one myself http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/air-filter-busted-driveshaft_topic49371.html?KW=driveshaft - here
 
 


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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 23:51
Right, bugger, thought as much, rubbish...Thumbs Down Thanks for your quick input! At least something like this can be fixed, albeit at a high cost no doubt, however, when I get it back it'll still be lame in the power turbo stakes. Pants. Perhaps it's possible to get the turbo system pressure tested also when in the shop and all can end on a much lighter note (wallet included).

Kitawagon out......for now Disapprove

Final thought....for all those with problematic T5's would you buy another? I'm starting to feel like never again and that is really gutting as I love it to bits (literally) in many ways, but really such unreliability as covered in this forum is just mind boggling. Totally unacceptable and shocking. Shame. I can only imagine what it must be like to spend towards 40,000 on a California for example and then to have such troubles!


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 18 Sep 10 at 23:58
Hi the other guys have got the driveshaft fault spot on sounds like the lightly cause of your latest complaint in respect of your revs sticking on changing gear have you tried the clutch pedal switch,the switch also controls the vaccum to the shut off flap and turbo so when you press the clutch it slows the revs when changing gear to save the clutch most people never notice if the switch is working or not as the only sign if you dont have cruise control is sticking/raising revs if you have cruise it obviously stops the cruise working.It is easy to check has only 2 wires try running with it unplugged and also with the plug off and a piece of wire bridging the switch if it cures your fault a few quid and all smiles again hope it helps.


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:08
VW master-tech. Thanks for your thoughts, however, would this cause rev peaking at all times or just when the engine is having to accelerate hard?


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:13
would cause it at all times however would be alot more noticeable during hard acceleration as you described like the clutch slipping would give the disconnect route a go costs nothing to check and rules something else out


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:15
Originally posted by VW master-tech VW master-tech wrote:

would cause it at all times however would be alot more noticeable during hard acceleration as you described like the clutch slipping would give the disconnect route a go costs nothing to check and rules something else out
 
Good adviceClap
 
 


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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:16
Thanks energy not all us at a dealer are there to pull your pants down!!LOL


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:20
Hah! A dealer, so I should choose my words carefully! Would you're average punter know where the clutch switch is or is it a Haines job etc...


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:22
Kita you will need to disconnect the switch as i cant off hand remember which way the switch works open/off or open circuit/on try running the van with it disconnected if the fault still occurs take a piece of wire and join the 2 wires in the plug and try again if it sorts your fault then a new switch awaits easy to change just untwists and pops out


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:24
Originally posted by VW master-tech VW master-tech wrote:

Thanks energy not all us at a dealer are there to pull your pants down!!LOL
 
In my opinion the guys "out back" with a spanner in their hand usually arent, its the suave, economical with the truth suits "out front" who wouldnt know the difference between a cam shaft and a calm day that like to try out the Dick Turpin routine 
 
 


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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:25
switch under the dash top of the clutch pedal pedal mounts in the bracket, yes i work in a dealer but am on here to help people out and learn some things myself this site is a great source of info and has a wide range of knowledge we could all do with a little help sometimes


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:27
Master can the switches operation be viewed on VAG COM/VCDS?

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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:30
not sure with vag com on the vw system there are a number of 0 and 1 which can be monitored through the live data much like testing the good old faithful brake pedal switch but the switch operation can easliy be tested with a multimeter for continuity whilst being operated it is just an on/off switch


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:30
Exactly, your advice is sterling, along with everyone else Beer


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:31
ahhh the good old brake pedal switch another fine piece of engineering LOL


Posted By: VW master-tech
Date Posted: 19 Sep 10 at 00:34
Thanks kita just hope it helps and keeps some money in your pocket for a bit longer unfortunatley the driveshaft and stub shaft repair will soon have those pennies not a cheap repair make sure that you get the modified grease from VW and throughly coat the splines when replacing the stub shaft and driveshaft (dont ask me whats modified about grease have no idea but seems to work LOL


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 27 Sep 10 at 18:07
Ok so everyone was right. The front right and longer (hence more expensive) of the two drive shafts was knackered. Basically teeth were stripped and the shaft just span. Cost £613 for parts and labour at http://autohausdolby.co.uk/ in Sheffield. Having driven the van now, it is clear that the repair is an improvement as the van now drives! Great! However, I'm still worried something is going wrong somewhere between the clutch and gearbox. First concern is that the clutch pedal has become noticeably easier to press to the floor (softer) and secondly the gear-change seems to be developing a notchiness. Again it's driveable and there is no noticeable clutch slippage but it just seems like a problem (another!) is developing. Paranoia, I hope so, but I think not. These symptoms sound familiar to anyone? There was also the 'peaking (say 500rpm extra) during gear changes under load. But this could be said to be intermittant as I didn't experience it today when accelerating moderately hard.Ermm This pointing to dual mass flywheel troubles?

Cheers..


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 28 Sep 10 at 20:43
Hi all, just to confirm that your suggestions were correct, I had a faulty clutch switch. Replaced by Gilders VW Van Centre, Sheffield @ £38. Fairly steep! However, they were kind enough to take the van for a drive and provide a good amount of advice regarding other issues.

Now concerning power loss, I'm now thinking that perhaps the turbo is fine and that it is either a cracked exhaust manifold or gasket (you can but hope LOL). I did the test whereby left the engine running, lifted the bonnet and held the obvious flap shut (not sure what it is called) causing the engine to stall and the tell tale puff of black smoke (as if someone lit 5 matches then blew them out) to be produced from the back left of the engine (as you look into the engine compartment - under the air filter area). I guess I have no option but to take it back to the mechanics so they can decipher if it is the manifold or gasket!

Cheers for all your advice. Again Smile


Posted By: T5 TDI
Date Posted: 29 Sep 10 at 20:49
Maybe a blow at the end of the manifold then.  I might be wrong about this but has anybody else reported a loss of power with an exhaust manifold leak?  Some have thought (including me) that maybe it felt very slightly better once fixed but no obvious loss of power beforehand.  Could be unconnected with the exhaust leak.  You need some proper diagnostics.
 
Re the light clutch, check the brake fluid, the clutch uses the same resovoir.  It sounds like air in the system which means a leak somewhere.  Unfortunately (and stupidly) the clutch slave cylinder is inside the bell housing of the gearbox.  This means the gearbox has to come out to replace it.  The master cylinder would be cheaper to replace if it was that but check the fluid level first.


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2004 2.5 174


Posted By: gregozedobe
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 16:56
Originally posted by Kitawagon Kitawagon wrote:

Final thought....for all those with problematic T5's would you buy another? I'm starting to feel like never again and that is really gutting as I love it to bits (literally) in many ways, but really such unreliability as covered in this forum is just mind boggling. Totally unacceptable and shocking. Shame.
 
Lots of people believe the early build T5s had way more than their fair share of problems, and that the later builds were significantly more (but still not totally) reliable as VW started to get their act together (particularly for the 2.5l 5 cyl engine).


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 18:11
Hah, just my luck. I guess you couldn't sell a million T5's on good looks alone???Clown


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 19:00
Hi there T5 TDI.  Ok that's strange, I was confident that the cracked manifold would cause pressure loss and likewise effect the turbo's performance. But I'm a mechanical punter so that a carries no weight Confused. Certainly with me the noticeable roughness of the engine is below 2000rpm. And there is a really noticeable strange vibration which occurs around 1800rpm and then disappears after 2000rpm when accelerating, almost as if a metal heat shield were loose and this was vibrating (tinkling), that kind of sound, but i have been suspecting that it was the turbo going and then secondly that this could be air leakage from the manifold (because I have seen the black smoke as described when forcing the engine to stall).  Above this things seem to be a lot smoother but I'm still convinced the overall power is down. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not like a slug, and i understand 1st and 2nd gearing is not best suited to racing away at the lights, but really I got wupped at the lights by a double decker Sheffield bus yesterday! EmbarrassedLOL When I was at the VW garage having the clutch switch replaced their suggestion was that the clutch was going, this could be the case I suppose but wouldn't account for any of the rattling noises under acceleration (at 1800rpm) and I have noticed absolutely zero slippage. They told me to stick my head under the bonnet and you can smell clutch, but that was after they had taken the van out and purposefully tried to get the clutch to slip! Less said about that the better.

Now I need help to get my cherished camper running as well as possible, I'm happy to pay someone competent to help me, but where to start? I asked the VW garage if they can pressurise the turbo pipework, including manifold etc. to see if there are any leaks and they said no they can't do that. I then asked them how would you diagnose if the turbo was under performing, they said plug it into the diagnostic system, however, they did that for the clutch switch and said there were no errors shown regarding anything else.

Regarding the turbo exhaust manifold (or gasket), there wouldn't be any black smoke when forced to stall if everything was tickety boo, right? So I know this is needed to be fixed and ticked off the list (with a shoddy VW replacement unless the Stainless Steel heroes deliver the goods!). However, sounds like this will have little or no bearing on power. Confused

After that, my view is that I would like to know if there is any leak in the turbo pipework etc. I'm sure I read somewhere that VW should have the kit available to do this? Should that be fine, then I guess I'm looking at having a mechanic remove the turbo for me, package it up and post it to a turbo specialist to have a look at and service/repair as necessary. Should that be done (probably good practice anyway), I then get it delivered back to the mechanic to fit. Woohoo, so I should be sorted then. Erm. Let's see!

After that I suppose there are other issues to condider such as EGR malfunctioning (sounds best to install a blocking plate), MAF sensor shenanigans, a load of crud deposited in the engine inlet due to the use of EGR?? The list presumably goes on LOL

Sorry for the epic post. Probably totally against forum etiquette!

Out.


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 19:43
Has anyone verified that the MAF sensors functioning correctly Kitawagon?

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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: mistadave
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 20:49
There was a post on here or on the vwt5 forum who had  fairly similar symptons of low power and a strange kind of vibration as the turbo spooled up and that turned out to be a leaky intercooler.

There is a proper VW dealer tool for testing the air intake system for leaks, or you could ask to buy T5 TDIs clever boost-hose-with-a-tyre-valve-stuck-in-it from his turbo squeal thread.

HOWEVER, from experience of driving 5 miles without the turbo connected to the intercooler (like an extreme intercooler leak), and not because the connectors are crap, but because i didn't put it back on properly, I can safely say the engine shouldn't feel rough, just gutless and black smoke.

A rough feeling, IMO, would tie in more with the EGR being stuck open and causing an unstable combustion or smothering it completely.

A cracked manifold will loose you some power, but obviously it depends how big the crack is. You're right in that if the hole is big enough, you will loose the pressure which drives the turbo. Most of these cracks are fairly small though, and while i did notice an improvement in fuel economy and performance while it was temporarily fixed with gun gum, I could still beat any other van at the lights now it is leaking again.

I don't think it could be the turbo causing the vibrations, if you think the most minuscule of imbalances and a turbo spinning at 200,000rpm would destroy itself pretty quickly, its not going to keep on causing vibrations you can feel, it would be just bang, and its gone.




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55 reg 174 LWB raven blue camper. Celtic remap, pipercross filter, MIJ de-cat and exhaust, Forge intercooler, Allard EGR powerpipe and oil catch tank


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 20:53
Hi. The garage mentioned that an intermittent fault was registered with regards to the MAF, however, I think this was probably due to me disconnecting and then reconnecting it the other day (just out of curiosity really). I took it out had a look at it, realised I had no idea what i was doing Geek (even though it looked spotless), and put it back in.....your honour. Smile


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 20:57
The MAFs operation can be viewed live on VCDS to verify its working correctly
 
 


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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 21:05
Ok great. I think we may be getting somewhere. So to check whether the intercooler has a small hole  then I need to take it to a VW dealer who can use the correct tool as it is unlikely that an indy would have this tool and I'm not sure I'd be able to access the turbo pipe even if T5 was kind enough to offer his magic bike valve pipe. I lilke the idea though Thumbs Up.

I'm not noticing any black smoke though. Had plenty when the previous turbo boost pipe had a leak, but non any more. Perhaps all the black smoke from before caused a load of crud to collect in the Cat therefore now restricting airflow?? I guess there is no way of checking that though.

Regarding a hole in the intercooler, would this also cause a puff of black smoke when the flap is manually should and the engine caused to stall?

Regards the turbo, strange that the vibrations kick in at a certain point in the rev range. Maybe it makes sense that the intercooler causes strange airflow/vibration shenanigans at around 1800rpm..Confused


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 21:06
VCDS = VW diagnostic tool? I guess there is only one and that would have been the one they plugged into to check the clutch switch?


Posted By: energysolutions
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 21:12
Originally posted by Kitawagon Kitawagon wrote:

VCDS = VW diagnostic tool? I guess there is only one and that would have been the one they plugged into to check the clutch switch?
 
VCDS = VAG COM
 
This is a cable which connects your van to any laptop and enables you to view the operation of sensors etc and read/diagnose fault codes
 
Cheap old versions are available on Ebay, the proper registered Ross Tech version costs around £250 but that includes free updates and support for life
 
 
 
 


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!!Never Eat Yellow Snow!!


Posted By: mistadave
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 21:50
Other than showing that your have a hole in your manifold, the puff of black smoke is perfectly normal when you do the flap test. You are restricting the amount of air into the engine, so the last few strokes have far too much fuel for the amount of air, which causes black smoke (unburned fuel).

The fact that you don't have black smoke out of the exhaust when running does kind of kill the leaky intercooler idea, as it should be smoking under acceleration because once again, too much fuel and too little air because it is leaking out, means black smoke. However the thread that i am still searching for definitely had a vibration as the turbo spooled up which was cured with an intercooler, I'm not really sure why it did that.

Normally you should also also get more black smoke with a stuck open egr too, because it is replacing the oxygen with exhaust gas, and so would again leave unburned fuel.

The MAF is definately worth checking properly, although when mine went it also caused more black smoke, its possibly it could be telling the ECU there isn't very much air coming in, so it doesnt inject much fuel and you get low power with no smoke. Doesn't explain the vibrations though?

The other possibility is worn cam lobes? A known issue on earlier T5s, could certainly cause vibration, not sure if it would make it smoke or not though, potentially its possible if it stops the injectors from injecting enough fuel.


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55 reg 174 LWB raven blue camper. Celtic remap, pipercross filter, MIJ de-cat and exhaust, Forge intercooler, Allard EGR powerpipe and oil catch tank


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 21:58
Hi Mista. Thanks for your input. What you say is making good sense. The vibration just feels wrong. You describe it perfectly as being when the turbo spools up. Really I am not noticing any black smoke. Perhaps I should ask someone to drive behind to make sure. Before it was clear (with split turbo pipe), when I put my foot down splodges of black would belch out. I've ordered an EGR blanking plate. Am keen to try this to rule out the EGR interference.

Worn cam lobes? Now that is a new one. Would this cause vibrations at such a narrow rev range do you think? The solution to this is a new camshaft?


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 21:59
Sorry, just to clarify. If there was no hole in the manifold there would be no black smoke? What I mean is there would still be black smoke inside somewhere but his wouldn't be exhausted into the engine bay?


Posted By: mistadave
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 22:03
I don't know if it could cause vibration in that narrow band, its more likely it would be all the time, but all I've heard is that its tale tale sign is vibrations. The fix is a new cam as long as you don't leave it too late, in which case it is injectors too.

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55 reg 174 LWB raven blue camper. Celtic remap, pipercross filter, MIJ de-cat and exhaust, Forge intercooler, Allard EGR powerpipe and oil catch tank


Posted By: mistadave
Date Posted: 30 Sep 10 at 22:11
Originally posted by Kitawagon Kitawagon wrote:

Sorry, just to clarify. If there was no hole in the manifold there would be no black smoke? What I mean is there would still be black smoke inside somewhere but his wouldn't be exhausted into the engine bay?

Yes that's right, the fact that you can see black smoke confirms you have a hole, nothing more, nothing less.

I actually diagnosed my cracked manifold by running the engine when it is dark and shining a torch around the manifold. You can see the smoke rising in the torch light quite clearly as the engine is idling. It might be worth you doing this so you can gauge how much it is leaking. I had whisps of smoke rising from near the airbox which was from very fine cracks, if you get a lot of smoke from there it could be a lot worse.


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55 reg 174 LWB raven blue camper. Celtic remap, pipercross filter, MIJ de-cat and exhaust, Forge intercooler, Allard EGR powerpipe and oil catch tank


Posted By: Kitawagon
Date Posted: 18 Oct 10 at 14:59
Hi all, just a quick update. I have now installed an EGR blanking plate from Brickwerks and it has made a really noticeable improvement to the running of the engine. As others have mentioned low rev smoothness and general pull of the engine is significantly better. With regards to my vibrations that were experienced around 1800 rpm whilst accelerating, these have also mostly disappeared. There is a faint hint of them still but there is a massive improvement. My understanding of all this is that I have either a gummed up EGR valve, a hole in the EGR pipe somewhere, or someother EGR shennanigans that are now pretty much sorted now that the blanking plate is in place.

Now, I'm tempted by the Allard EGR removal kit as seen on ebay so to totally scrap the problematic EGR, however, don't like the sound of an uncontrollable engine rev runaway if there's an oil leak!

But, for now I'm much happier with the power and driveability of the van, but something is still not 100%. I'm thinking pipe leakage around the intercooler now. The investigation continues......Geek

Thanks for all your inputs..Smile


Posted By: mistadave
Date Posted: 18 Oct 10 at 17:46
dont worry about runaway without the engine stop flap. if it starts to happen just select 6th gear and drop the clutch to stall the engine.

I've never heard of runaway happening to any t5 (in terms of engine revs going up with no accelerator pedal). its very rare on a modern diesel engine and the very fact that its happening means you have a very expensive repair bill anyway, being able to stop it just prevents an even bigger repair bill!


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55 reg 174 LWB raven blue camper. Celtic remap, pipercross filter, MIJ de-cat and exhaust, Forge intercooler, Allard EGR powerpipe and oil catch tank


Posted By: T5 TDI
Date Posted: 18 Oct 10 at 22:00
I'm with Dave about the lack of the flap.  The stalling method should do it unless the clutch is weak.  
 
Just out of interest I don't think the flap is used to actually stop the engine.  I think it is there only to limit that shuddering as you switch off.  The flap opens again after about a second after you turn the key off so I don't think it would help in a runnaway situation unless you could open the bonnet quickly enough to hold it closed by hand. 
 
Having driven mine more now I reckon it does feel crisper and more responsive and it certainly is doing better on fuel since I cured the exhaust leak.  The test with the flap is as Dave says just to cause some extra smoke which will be puffed out of the nearest hole thereby showing up an exhaust leak nothing else.  It's not even an official VW test, it's just yet another great Brick-yard T5 discovery. Wink Big smile 


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2004 2.5 174



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