The Brick-yard Homepage Brickwerks
Forum Home Forum Home > T3 Section > T3 Tech help
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - overheating in the cold!!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

overheating in the cold!!

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
talkingwhippet View Drop Down
Not Quite Newbie
Not Quite Newbie


Joined: 11 Mar 08
Status: Offline
Points: 20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote talkingwhippet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: overheating in the cold!!
    Posted: 05 Jan 10 at 20:22
Hi,
been trying to sort out an overheating problem on my AAZ engined van.
 
Water doesn't seem to be getting through radiator.  Inlet pipe from engine is cold at rad end, although return pipe is warmish, but guessing that is just hot water from engine.  Rad is warm at bottom, but cold in top half.  I have recently fitted a new water pump and reversed flushed whole system so I know there are no blockages or leaks in pipes.  Not managed to get system to cool properly since then - although bled system as advised on forums.  Plenty of hot water coming out of bleed screw on rad when van on ramps, but rad not getting hot when screw closed up again.
 
Is there a problem with bleeding system - or is rad blocked somehow?  Looks to be in good condition and relatively new as no damage to core that's obvious.  Any advice or ideas?
 
Happy New Year to all BTW!!
 
Cheers.
 
Talkingwhippet
Somerset - 1984 1.9TD camper
Back to Top
Tee3 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group
Avatar
Coprophagous Cretin

Joined: 06 Jun 04
Location: Huddersfield
Status: Offline
Points: 9573
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tee3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 10 at 20:39
Originally posted by talkingwhippet talkingwhippet wrote:

Plenty of hot water coming out of bleed screw on rad when van on ramps
 


try bleeding it without the ramps:

http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/bleeding-the-cooling-system_topic29710.html

YOU CANT EDUCATE PORK

http://www.tee3.co.uk/
Back to Top
sportwomble View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 29 Aug 07
Location: bromley
Status: Offline
Points: 800
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sportwomble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 10 at 21:29
^WHS^
I had this alot
keep doing it
it will come around
could also be worth checking the stat
Back to Top
talkingwhippet View Drop Down
Not Quite Newbie
Not Quite Newbie


Joined: 11 Mar 08
Status: Offline
Points: 20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote talkingwhippet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 10 at 12:54
Excellent - that's really helpful guys!
Didn't find this before when searching.
 
Cheers.
 
Talkingwhippet
Somerset - 1984 1.9TD camper
Back to Top
colinthefox View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 Oct 09
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 172
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 10 at 21:54

You say you replaced the water pump, and you have had the problem ever since. Which water pump did you fit? The JX kind (clockwise rotation), or the AAZ kind (shoot me down if I'm wrong but I think it's anticlockwise).  Wrong rotation pump will produce a small output, but not enough to cool the engine. Do you have the AAZ housing or the JX setup with vee belts? Vee belts is clockwise, Flat belt (depending on your setup), should be anticlockwise I think.

1.9D AEF T3 Kamper
All sorts of other oil burners too.
Back to Top
jokeruk View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 19 Apr 09
Location: Newton
Status: Offline
Points: 347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jokeruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 10 at 17:58
Originally posted by colinthefox colinthefox wrote:

You say you replaced the water pump, and you have had the problem ever since. Which water pump did you fit? The JX kind (clockwise rotation), or the AAZ kind (shoot me down if I'm wrong but I think it's anticlockwise).  Wrong rotation pump will produce a small output, but not enough to cool the engine.

If this was the case, you wouldn't be able to use the JX water pump on the AAZ would you (i know i used it on the swap that chucklebus and I have just done on mine)
Leigh

Blue 1992 LLE (2436 of 2500)
Back to Top
icky View Drop Down
Vanorak
Vanorak
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 06
Location: Milton Keynes
Status: Offline
Points: 1335
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 10 at 18:08
Also, depending on how the AAZ was installed, some numpty might have put the belt on the wrong way round the water pump belt like in this picture... (the red is where the belt SHOULD go...
 
 
However - also consider if you've not got enough Antifreeze in, and the radiator part system is partially freezing up with the air passing through it as you drive along through the really cold air, thus leaving the engine 'cooking' by itself. The solution is to warm the cooling system through on
Idle before leaving.
 
The final suggestion I have is airlocks.
Engine cranes = the ultimate tool to test the tensile strength of Everything you didn't disconnect!

- 2000 MK4 Golf GT TDi
- 1994 LT Panel Van
- 1997 LT Minibus
- 1984 Volvo/VanHool Alizee
Back to Top
colinthefox View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 Oct 09
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 172
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 10 at 10:38
Originally posted by jokeruk jokeruk wrote:

Originally posted by colinthefox colinthefox wrote:

You say you replaced the water pump, and you have had the problem ever since. Which water pump did you fit? The JX kind (clockwise rotation), or the AAZ kind (shoot me down if I'm wrong but I think it's anticlockwise).  Wrong rotation pump will produce a small output, but not enough to cool the engine.

If this was the case, you wouldn't be able to use the JX water pump on the AAZ would you (i know i used it on the swap that chucklebus and I have just done on mine)
 
Leigh
 
The point is that the AAZ pump housing is designed for an anticlockwise pump, so you have to fit an AAZ pump which has an anticlock impeller, not a JX pump which has a clockwise impeller. Then when you have fitted a matching pump and housing the pump has to be driven in the right direction by the belt. All sorts of combinations appear possible, but only one (with everything matched) will produce full output to cool the engine properly. These other combinations would probably be OK till you want full power from the engine for some serious hill climbing.
 
Icky is spot on with his belt routing photo. It's no good saying you've got a JX pump, and using the wrong belt routeing to run it clockwise, cos it's still in the wrong housing and won't work properly.
 
Colin


Edited by colinthefox - 11 Jan 10 at 10:41
1.9D AEF T3 Kamper
All sorts of other oil burners too.
Back to Top
Globbits View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 08 Aug 07
Location: Cornwall-land
Status: Offline
Points: 466
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Globbits Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 10 at 10:51
Sorry for the hijack guys, but I have a horrible suspicion that I'm the numpty that Icky mentioned!

Are you saying:
1) There's a difference between the diesel water pumps? (I thought VW TD's all used the same pump?)
2) That I've got my pump pulley spinning the wrong way if I've got an AAZ with the belt sitting on the outside of the pulley?! (I couldn't get it to fit going the other way round - the belt was slightly too short)

I take it this is me being dumb and I really ought to go buy a slightly longer belt and a new water pump?!

Richard
Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!
Back to Top
colinthefox View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 Oct 09
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 172
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 10 at 20:23
Yes indeed.
 
Water pumps from original fitment engines on the T3 with the double vee belt setup, quite obviously are designed rotate clockwise, viewed from the pulley side.
 
Water pumps from AAZ, and AEF engines certainly, and I assume all the others with the flat ribbed belts are designed to run anticlockwise.
 
Here's a photo of the insides of an AEF (Polo) water pump.
 
 
The housing on the left and pump unit on the right are designed for water flow as shown by the arrows. That's anticlockwise, innit.
 
If you are using the AAZ pump housing (anticlockwise) you must fit the AAZ type pump (anticlockwise), and the pulley must run anticlockwise, and the only way to do that is to run it off the BACK of the belt. That's why the pulley is smooth, not ribbed.
 
If you are using the Original fitment T3 water pump housing (clockwise) you must have an original T3 (JX or CS etc) clockwise pump. and the pulley must run clockwise too, meaning you must use the original T3 double vee belt setup.
 
You must not mix clockwise and anticlockwise pumps and housings, cos fairly obviously they weren't designed to work together. If you look at the photo, you can see the castings are matched when you bolt them up.
 
If you rotate your pump the wrong way, or put the wrong pump in your housing, the pump will still provide a little output because it's partially a centrifugal pump which just flings water to the outside. I would guess about enough to trickle around the bypass loop, but not enough to cool the engine under full load round the radiator circuit. But the pump is what I call a mixed flow design, which also swirls water round and round, (you can just see the impeller blades in the photo) so the outlet port must face in the correct direction, or the water has to stop and go backwards to get out of the outlet, if you see what I mean.
 
Hope this clarifies.
 
Colin
 
 
 
 
1.9D AEF T3 Kamper
All sorts of other oil burners too.
Back to Top
Globbits View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 08 Aug 07
Location: Cornwall-land
Status: Offline
Points: 466
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Globbits Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 10 at 20:32
It does, but doesn't explain why my van's not overheating Stern Smile
My pump's squeaking anyway, so think it's time for a new pump and new (slightly longer) belt to make sure all's well!
Thanks for the explanation!
Richard
Myrtle the wonderbus: Out with the AAZ, in with the SVX!
Back to Top
talkingwhippet View Drop Down
Not Quite Newbie
Not Quite Newbie


Joined: 11 Mar 08
Status: Offline
Points: 20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote talkingwhippet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 10 at 21:37
OK - now I'm totally confused.
 
I got a new water-pump from Simon Baxter which is complete incl. housing and on web-site is advertised as fitting all diesel engines incl. AAZ.  I checked with Simon by phone and he confirmed that these pumps rotate clockwise, despite the fact that the pulley is smooth.  I have retained the AAZ alternator with flat, ribbed belt.
 
Are you saying that I should have got an entirely different water pump applicable to AAZ only so I can run it anti-clockwise???  Does running a clockwise pump with ribbed belt really make that much difference to its efficiency (i.e. belt ribs driving pulley on RH side)???
 
Incidentally, I have now bled the system properly and all seems to be working fine - but confused again now about direction of pump.
 
Cheers.
Talkingwhippet
Somerset - 1984 1.9TD camper
Back to Top
colinthefox View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 Oct 09
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 172
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 10 at 17:54

The pumps Simon sells are definitely clockwise pumps, of the JX, CS etc type judging by the photos on his website. If you fit the complete pump and housing they should fit all 1.6 and 1.9, just as long as they rotate clockwise. How you get them to rotate clockwise is up to you. I suppose there's nothing to stop you running it off the ribbed side of the belt with a smooth pulley, but that's not how flat belts are designed to work, because there's not enough "wrap" round the pulley for the belt, and it won't provide a good drive, and it would need to be very tight to work. There's very little contact area for the ribs against the pulley, and I have seen other posts complaining of squealing belts and ribs breaking up. It's bad engineering basically. I'll admit that the double vee belt setup isn't exactly stunning, but at least it's working as designed. It often sqeals too if not perfectly adjusted.

You said your pump was squeaking. Was it the pump itself or the belt squealing?
1.9D AEF T3 Kamper
All sorts of other oil burners too.
Back to Top
max and caddy View Drop Down
Vanorak
Vanorak
Avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 09
Location: Lancaster..uk
Status: Offline
Points: 4809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max and caddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 10 at 18:01
Originally posted by icky icky wrote:

Also, depending on how the AAZ was installed, some numpty might have put the belt on the wrong way round the water pump belt like in this picture... (the red is where the belt SHOULD go...
 
 
However - also consider if you've not got enough Antifreeze in, and the radiator part system is partially freezing up with the air passing through it as you drive along through the really cold air, thus leaving the engine 'cooking' by itself. The solution is to warm the cooling system through on
Idle before leaving.
 
The final suggestion I have is airlocks.
im sure this is wrong! never known a vw pump to rotatate the other way (anticlock) and the AAZ deffo turns clockwise, no doubt on that one! assume you had a v belt fitted, ok, how would you run a pump anticlockwise from a crank pulley that turns clockwise??? a gearbox? cross the belts?? not possible.. 
Back to Top
colinthefox View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 Oct 09
Location: Devon
Status: Offline
Points: 172
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colinthefox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 10 at 19:20
This IS getting confusing!
 
The pumps fitted with the flat belt arrangement in the donor car would rotate anticlockwise. When putting the engine  in the van you can either use the pump/alternator/pulley setup which was fitted in the donor car (anticlockwise pump), or you can change it for the van type pump (clockwise), which is what I assume most people do. In my previous photos there is absolutely no doubt that the pump which was fitted in the donor Polo was anticlockwise, (see for yourself in the photo!) and the Haynes manual belt routing diagram for the Polo is quite specific on that. If I choose to use that complete setup in my van, it still has to run the same way. Flat belt, smooth pulley, run off back of belt. Thats the way flat belts are designed to work. When you change the pump it would have to be for a similar kind (polo, golf, etc)
 
If, however, I choose to use the T3 type pump and alternator setup on my replacement engine, the pump has to run clockwise. I am trying (probably very badly!) to point out that using the flat belt, ribbed side to a smooth pulley with no "wrap" is bad engineering, and in that case the vee belts should be used.
 
 
Siiimplez
 
 
1.9D AEF T3 Kamper
All sorts of other oil burners too.
Back to Top
max and caddy View Drop Down
Vanorak
Vanorak
Avatar

Joined: 12 Dec 09
Location: Lancaster..uk
Status: Offline
Points: 4809
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote max and caddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 10 at 20:04
ok so your using a AEF polo engine? that might have a anti clockwise pump, i will check, what has baffled me is that in a golf the the pump is a van pump! its the same and that pic with the belt shown in red is a golf engine setup with the spring on the alt,
Those pumps in the pic dont even look like vw pumps to me!
i dont care anymore! i have 3 AAZ engines, 2 with poly v belts and one with jx v belts and they all go clockwise!
 
why does the water pump pulley need groves  in it if it works?? the G60 engines had grooved pulleys but had to be adjustable to align them but thay were hi performance petrol engines ( same pump as an AAZ tho!)
 
anyway...the flat belt is why the crank pulleys fail so use v belts!  
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down


The WebThis site