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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Topic: Our resto(Again!)Thread locked at Bluebays request Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 09:07 |
As you all know Sue and I had our Cheetah restored in the early months of last year (2010). Since then the van has leaked constantly and after many failed attempts to stop the leaks, we sent our van off to be repaired by someone else. During the course of the work required to get the van leak-free several discoveries where made with regards to our “restoration” and we feel we want to share these with everyone. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Upon delivery at it’s destination an initial examination was conducted and in the rear offside cupboard, rotten wood was soon discovered behind the wall paper. This is not new rot since the restoration; this is wood which has decayed over the past 26 years. We had been told that the bunk bed base had been replaced during one of the return visits to the restorer. The bunk bed base had in fact been covered with thin plywood, trapping the wet and black rotting wood beneath. After the covering of thin ply had been removed, this is what was found. Right-hand corner above the passenger position- black mould and wet to the touch. Left-hand front corner above the driver Even although the new thin ply had only been down a short while, it was already becoming contaminated. The front edge of the original bunk bed base was rotted. The wood simply crumbled to the touch.. The underside of the bed base removed from the right-hand corner. The front of our Cheetah would be at the top of the board in this photo. With the black and wet bed base removed, a fan heater was set to work. Apparently it was effective as the heat could be felt on the outside on the Cheetah's fibreglass front end and the wet side walls slowly started to dry. A small soft spot right in the corner bottom edge of the side wall was discovered, but it thought when it drys out it should be OK. The remainder of the side walls are apparently fine. Loads more pictures showing the horrors uncovered yet to come >:(
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 10:57
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 11:35 |
On the outside of the Cheetah. The top joining aluminium strip was removed (the black plastic insert trim didn't fit is properly anyhow!). As the aluminium trim was fitted to cover over the ali panel used when we asked for the front window to be removed, we were not worried if it got wrecked. Just as well, as the strip was secured using White Bathroom Silicone Sealant and it had to be pryed off. Chewed up screws such as this didn't help one bit in removing the aluminium strip, nor screws driven in at very odd angles. The only good point about this was that the main aluminium roof skin over-lapped this aluminium panel. You can clearly see the white bathroom sealant. More tricky was the bottom Aluminium strip. We want to keep this one, but like the top one it wasn't easy removing it as again white Bathroom silicone sealant, black Sikolastomer and it is thought IDL99 (non-setting frame sealant) – although we are not 100% certain about that. The latter (IDL99) we believe was also used on the sealing rubbers going around the edges of the Cheetah. IDL99 goes powdery when exposed to air and water and the sealant used on the edge sealing rubbers had this sort of feel and touch to it. The bottom aluminium strip had at least 30 screws in it, which in all honesty was thought to be a bit over the top and its purpose is only to cover the overlap to the overhead cab fibreglass base. The bottom trim removed and the aluminium patch have now been removed. The fibreglass base is peppered with holes. These holes will be filled as not all of them are needed and they provide another access for the water to get in. Note the 2nd and 3rd braces running vertical. These were fixed using White Bathroom sealant and nothing else. That’s not clever at all. These should have been glued and stapled. The next photo look alarming, but it's not as bad as it seems. The cab side (above the passenger) was wet to the touch. The wood is solid (not soft) and the dark colour to it is caused by dampness. And the other side. similar but OK. Wet to touch, but solid wood. Restored? Not this next bit. And closer still. You can just see the tan leatherette covering the cross beam and the cross beam itself (just above the fibreglass). The crossbar has had a lucky escape because of this leatherette covering it. The very ends of it were a bit damp, but it will dry out. Extremely luck as this saves a lot of work and expense having to replace the cross beam. To replace the rotted ceiling board properly, the front wooden window frame has to be completely removed and the front frame rebuilt from scratch. There were some oddities also - such as nails that had been used to fix the roof down to the side frame (should have been stapled if anything at all) and staples had been driven into the fibreglass cab (no idea why). Most of these have to be removed to prevent dimpling the new roof aluminium, but one or two have to remain as to removing them might damage the fibreglass. Those which remained were driven down below the surface now so should be fine. We know for a fact that some were definitely put in there recently as they were shiny and new, but some we cannot be 100% sure about.
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 21:36
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 12:16 |
The new bit of internal roof board which had stuck and screwed over the existing and rotting internal board has been removed. Not sure what it was stuck with, but it was good adhesive! The three upright braces which were put into the area where the window was previously were removed simply by twisting them out (remember they were only fixed in there white silicone. The insulation has been removed and discarded as they too had been siliconed to the plywood. Once all done, this left the front of the Cheetah looking like this: As you can see the front offside panel (above the passenger) and original rood board is mouldy and will be replaced. Inside view The next task was to remove the front window frame as originally fitted by Karmann. A few long screws, a ton of staples and that got eased out of the front. We have a hole but it's the right sort of hole! The condition of the surrounding wood is good, but still a little damp. You might just be able to see a small damp patch (top right of opening), so water was getting there too. So this is how Karmann originally built this overhead cab section. This is the bit that will be rebuilt from scratch. Some time was then spent removing all the staples. Lots more yet to come.
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 23:12
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 13:20 |
A trip to the timber yard was required to buy new wood. First the new bed base - 8'x4' 9mm WBP. And a huge chunk of softwood (it was 3meters long). Which was cut down to the right size…… Making the new frame. The original Karmann frame is used as a template Trial fitting. Perfect fit. Next the corner fillets are made. As the window wasn’t yet available, the original panel is used to get the right shapes. Each corner is marked to ensure they are placed in the right corners of the frame. Finished frame inserted but not yet fixed. The courier arrived with the new ceiling board. That is cut and bonded to the new frame. Whilst that is drying, work starts on the new bed base. It is cut to size and then varnished to provide extra protection. When dry, the new bed base is inserted to the overhead cab.
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 23:13
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 13:36 |
Next task on the list is to remove the roof. The side aluminium trims are removed along with the awning. The edge trim was secured with an array of different screw types and sizes – not all stainless steel either. The rear of the roof (the roof was replaced in 2010) had gaps 1/2" wide The back window blind was removed so that the back window could be taken out. What the fcuk is this? More horrors will be revealed when the roof skin is off. It took 2 hours to remove the roof skin as any number of different sealants, adhesive tapes and worse still “No More Nails” had been used. “No More Nails”: Spot the "I've cut it too short" fix. Note the lack of the wooden roof fillet. This had been made up by using double sided foam tape. Also the use of clear silicone sealant. This double sided tape didn’t even have the backing strip removed! Evidence of damp entering the roof over the kitchen area. The slant over the kitchen was rotted. ……..and had holes in it.
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 23:14
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 13:47 |
Bear in mind that the damage you are seeing is after paying or a resto,It was never touched but instead whee possible it was just covered up,Brings into mind the question....If they had done this to my vehicle,Had they done the same to the others? As for the TDI install its just as shite..More horrors to follow
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Mickyfin
Yardie
Joined: 14 Jul 11
Location: Kuopio, Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 342
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 13:49 |
Very interesting following this thread and your discoveries! Shocking what this so call resto company have done, truly shocking.! Look forward to your further updates, refreshing page as I know you are currently active in posting. Good work on taking this on, and putting your skills to the test, looking good so far.
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2011 VW Crafter 170 LWB HighT op 2.0TDi
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 13:59 |
Thank you Mickey I must admit that im not carrying out the work but it is being done to a very high standard by a friend,Uncovering horrors rom previous resto all the time
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 14:04 |
And so the back window is removed. WTF…. It’s not even the right length. That’s one way of trying to cover over a poor fitting window. Use more sealant. This entire section should have been remade so that the window fitted properly. This will all require correcting. To clean the roof plywood of all the cr*p took 2 guys a complete day. Time to start the repairs. The kitchen slant. This is made from 3 pieces of wood which are bonded together. Over the next 2 days, the slant was reconstructed. The old and the new The new slant is fitted, although this was again not without problems. The wiring to the light had been rerouted incorrectly and this caused a few problems securing the new kitchen slant. To be continued…..
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 23:15
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Mickyfin
Yardie
Joined: 14 Jul 11
Location: Kuopio, Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 342
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 14:12 |
Tried to help with your photos, but I see you sorted them now
Edited by Mickyfin - 02 Oct 11 at 14:14
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2011 VW Crafter 170 LWB HighT op 2.0TDi
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 14:17 |
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 15:13 |
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Mickyfin
Yardie
Joined: 14 Jul 11
Location: Kuopio, Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 342
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 16:04 |
Superb work my friend, impressive!
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2011 VW Crafter 170 LWB HighT op 2.0TDi
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 16:53 |
Mickyfin wrote:
Superb work my friend, impressive! |
She is in excellent hands and cheers i will pass that on
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 16:58 |
From in inside… Besides the front cab area leaking, the back window was also letting water in. At first it wasn’t exactly clear as to why, but as work progressed, it became evident that a number of factors contributed to the leak. As the above photo’s testify, the framework around the rear window wall wasn’t a prime example of craftsmanship and the rough wood was a million miles from the best quality either. The bike rack and roof access ladder rails were both mounted too low and in the wrong position (too close to the window)… .. so the frame flexed if either were used. This effectively caused a gap above the window. The final problem was found with the window frame itself. During the cleaning of the edges it was found a repair had been done to the corner. The corner had been broken off. Further examination of the frame revealed chips out of the frame were the window had been levered out rather than gently pushed from the inside. Draw your own conclusions. All these problems will be addressed and correct before the window is refitted. Meanwhile on the roof, repairs are done to make it as good as possible. The success of laying a new skin on it is dependant on it being blemish free. This gap shouldn’t be here at all. The ply wood should be cut to angled to butt up against the kitchen slant. The overhead cab has an extra brace put into it. The No More Nails is impossible to get off the insulation, it should never have been used in the first instance… So the insulation is turn over to provide a flat surface for the ali to lie on. The back missing wooden fillet is made and is shaped to run from 9mm to nothing This creates and smooth transition from the roof ply to the back end. New Bike rack and roof access ladder cross rails are placed in the right places. The window opening is fixed and new insulation is applied to the back end. It was noted during this fitting that the framework was not of the correct size. The question you may ask is, are there any more horrors to unfold? Yes, there ar
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 17:12
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 18:46 |
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rowlesy
Vanorak
murdered the murderwagen
Joined: 09 Oct 05
Location: up unit!
Status: Offline
Points: 6466
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 19:28 |
tidy work there! nice to know its being done propperly! theres some real assholes about aint there!
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UberFukz broke another! sucky sucky five dollah!
always out numbered never out gunned! RWS welding 07846 380 467 (worcs)
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 19:31 |
The bike rack and roof access rails are position in the correct place. The edge Ali rails are cleaned and the indents created by the old screws are knocked flat. The back window is then cut out And the window placed back in. It fits in perfectly this time. The sealant is cleaned from the inside window trim. Sealant and silicone was used to hold the trim onto the window clips. Look, they really don’t need anything to hold them on if it’s done right The flyscreen and black out blinds are cleaned before refitting. Note the water still present from the window leak and (Yes I know) more sealant <rollseyes> It’s always better to replace any screws with ‘like for like’. Do not use screws which go into the wood at this angle (these will be changed). [img]http://www.karmann-coachbuilts.com/restorations/bluebays/img_2437-1024.jpg9/img]
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 19:33 |
rowlesy wrote:
tidy work there! nice to know its being done propperly! theres some real assholes about aint there! |
Cheers bud i shall pass on your encouragement And your right about the arseholes too
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Bluebays
Vanorak
Joined: 04 Feb 05
Location: Fraggle Rock
Status: Offline
Points: 2875
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Posted: 02 Oct 11 at 19:35 |
The window black-out blind and fly net refitted Time to cut out the front window. The internal roofboard has already been cut out using the router and trim bit. The front ali is secured with duct tape and is held firm from the outside while the window opening is cut. The window is then placed into the hole after applying closed cell double side tape to make it water-tight. A generous line of Single cab pick uplastomer is applied to the bottom edge to combat water capillary action. The front side to side ali trim is then refitted (it’s already been flattened by the metalwork shop). It’s time for the edge rubbers and trim…..
Edited by Bluebays - 02 Oct 11 at 20:13
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