How to upgrade from RCD200

Is it the head unit or the speakers (door enclosures) producing awful boom?

First problem: removing rcd 200:

It is stuck! If this happens, remove the little tray above the stereo: You'll notice heatsink on left of unit in the above picture - the wiring may be caught in this, as was the case in mine:

Huge surprise: a wiring diagram is on these like on delta - nice of VW to provide a little info for once: elsawin doesn't have it!

Can I wire in rear speakers? Well a couple of guys assured me connecting speakers will make the 'fade' option start working, but I've found the wires are not in the vehicle by default:

Comparing to pinout above, only the fronts are connected.

But the great news is there is a single channel per side (for each of front and back) rather than outputs to woofer/tweeter etc specifically, so crossover is elsewhere in vehicle. That is next thing for me to find: though it is possible they use none and just put a capacitor on the tweeter.

I will also need to find something to insert into the connector to go onto spades on back of rcd200: anyone know where spares of these plugs can be got from, rather than buying blaupunkts ready made one (http://www.bluespot.co.uk/install/show_model.asp?id=324)

 

Charliem. Thanks for the info. I found it pretty daunting (and time consuming) when I was "podding and 'toothing" my RCD200. Your info would have been a great help then.

I'm not sure if we're talking about quite the same thing here, but to make extra connections in the spare holes in those blocks, I bought a generic VW connector thingy from Maplins, cut the plastic away with a Dremel, and salvaged the 'socketty' pins from inside. I then threaded the new cable through the existing block and crimped on the new 'socketty pin' (casn you tell I'm not an ICE pro?)

More on that in this thread.

Don't suppose you know where (in Nokia speak) the 'IGNS' connection is do you? (switched ignition I presume). I've still not been able to work that one out.

 

 

Sound quality

I really want to leave original Head unit in, so no one break in for it. Next question I had was: Is the horrid bass because of the speakers or the Head unit?

The short answer if you don't want to read this bit of the post is as follows: The sound quality is good, but obvously not up to a nice Alpine/Pioneer. Even plugged into one of their amps it will be better than at present, but not as good as them. But for most people it is probably fine. The speakers in the doors / the housing formed by doors themselves as awful!

Technically:

Here's a better head unit

So, comparing to an audiolab hifi amp, I'd say that whilst the details at the top end (the attack on accoutic guitars, ride cymals etc) is poor from RCD200, it has plenty of power and slight 'car friendly curve'. IE some of the upper midrange is slightly quieter than bass, lower mid, and trebble. This upper mid is the one that isn't drowned out by engine/road noise, the nasty tiny sound of a crap stereo in a crap car. By making that a little quieter, once driving, the overall balance sounds better.

What causes the horrid bass then?

This is not how frequency responses should be done, but crudely, i put a CD of both a sweep (from lowest to highest frequency) and of white noice (sounds like radio fuzz, contains all frequencies) into player, and recorded output on mp3 player, from both stock VW speakers, and pair of average £80 hifi speakers. All driven from RCD 200

VW sweep response

HIFi sweep response

VW requency analysis

HIFI speakers frequency analysis

OK, probably far too technical, but just wanted to show that horrid bass is the speakers in the T5, not the head unit. A vague explanation of the above is that the top two show the volume starting from the lowest to highest frequencies. Both show more bass, for all sorts of reasons, not least the van is a very small room, and standing waves are set up. But ignoring the first of the two peaks, the VW speakers have a second huge one, at the 'high bass end', the hifi speakers only have one peak (at the vans resonant frequencies, i suggest).

Frequency analysis gives same finding. Look at the lump at the bass end compared to hifi speakers.

TwoFish wrote: Charliem. Thanks for the info. I found it pretty daunting (and time consuming) when I was "podding and 'toothing" my RCD200. Your info would have been a great help then.

And your advice below would have been a great help to me as you'll see from what I just posted. I reinvented the wheel (terminal sabbotage)

TwoFish wrote: I'm not sure if we're talking about quite the same thing here, but to make extra connections in the spare holes in those blocks, I bought a generic VW connector thingy from Maplins, cut the plastic away with a Dremel, and salvaged the 'socketty' pins from inside. I then threaded the new cable through the existing block and crimped on the new 'socketty pin' (casn you tell I'm not an ICE pro?) More on that in this thread. Don't suppose you know where (in Nokia speak) the 'IGNS' connection is do you? (switched ignition I presume). I've still not been able to work that one out.

OK - well there are 4 wires connected to the Right hand socket on the pictures up this page:

I have an old ISO connector, and I labled that when I took it out of a car: it also has the same 4 wires connected, so I imagine they are the same.

WRONGLY, mapping an ISO terminal onto this diagram, :

CAN - 12V ign (NOT on VW T5s with Delta!)

+U switched signal to extra amps etc (NOT on VW)

Ground symbol ground

+ SAFE 12V continuously unswitched (supply)

BUT This is wrong.

I just stuck a multi meter in following your post, thought clearly I can't touch CANbus connector. The ground is indeed ground, and both the +U and +SAFE are 12V whether or not ignition is on. Suggests 'switch on' comes from CANBUS - i.e. there is no switched 12V for phones etc. This will cause a problem for amps, so we'll need another switched source, perhaps cigarette lighter: anyone got suggestions? Where is nearest switched source?

Might be worth a line to bluespot.co.uk to see if their VW to standard ISO adaptor can provide a switched power (which would give us answer), but I'm pretty sure it can't.

Edited by charliem

A useful link for those updating their factory systems.

http://www.jewuwa.de/T5/T5_Sites/T5_Tipps/T5_Multimedia.htm

Most useful are the links to the cable/plug assignments.

Cheers, MM

Hi Charliem,

I'm using the Radios-VW-T5.pdf as a reference too.  I will remote switch my amplifiers and processor from the AV head unit.  I will be powering my head unit off SchaltPlus (switched) rather than Dauerstrom (constant).

NOTE: Switched & Constant pin assignments in VW are switched from the ISO norm!  Check before connecting. 

NOTE: On some VW the Switched line becomes live on insertion, not necessarily rotation of the ignition key.

I have the single DIN CD player in the Beach and VW Tech Support could not confirm over the telephone if it took a CAN bus signal for any of its functions - in particular road speed for active volume adjustment. 

I am sure my head unit is an ISO unit.  If so, the key will be a connection, or absence of, in Block 3, Pin 1  (speed signal - GALA).

GALA
Geschwindigkeits
abhängige
Lautstärke
anpassung

ie. speed relative volume control

VW suggested removing the head unit and simply inspecting the plug assignment decal on the back of the unit. 

For Australian T5s, the change to "CAN bus integrated" head units began mid 2006.

The Alpine installer is currently cross referencing their installation database for any other T5 installs.

Cheers, MM

Another site full of useful info...

http://72.14.203.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.self madehifi.de/hifi/kfz-prod.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dschalt% 2Bplus%26hl%3Den

EDIT 1 - Just been informed that a parcel of Dynamat Extreme (2x bulk packs) has arrived along with a couple rolls of Ensolite.  R&R activities being planned...

EDIT 2 - Ordered a roll of BXT from RAAM Audio (USA) for my front doors.  BXT is very similar to Dynamat Extreme but for three notable exceptions.
1. The aluminium foil layer does not leave a sharp edge when trimmed
2. BXT can be moulded to shape by hand - a roller is not required
3. BXT is approximately half the price of Dynamat Extreme.

EDIT 3 - Alpine installer confirmed that my factory single CD head unit is an ISO only unit.  No CAN bus feed.

Edited by MultiplexMan

MultiplexMan wrote: NOTE: On some VW the Switched line becomes live on insertion, not necessarily rotation of the ignition key.

... and on some, sadly mine, I've discovered there definitely isn't a switched line. It is controlled by CAN only

MultiplexMan wrote: EDIT 1 - Just been informed that a parcel of Dynamat Extreme (2x bulk packs) has arrived along with a couple rolls of Ensolite.  R&R activities being planned...

I went for the basic dynamat stuff. I didn't want to spend too much on it, so 70 quid for a bulk pack was all I wanted to go up to. Used it double in some places. Good to hear someone experienced chose the same stuff. I just went off reviews, but I notice someone did tests with a heat gun etc to see how extremes effect adhesion (for those of us who  want to go somewhere sunny without runny bitumen in the doors, blocking drainage channels etc).  See below for details.

MultiplexMan wrote: EDIT 3 - Alpine installer confirmed that my factory single CD head unit is an ISO only unit.  No CAN bus feed.

And I'm now absoultely sure the RCD200 is CAN only. Elsawin 3.5 (data to 2008) still doesn't have rcd200 data in, but I'm pleased to have found my engine and gearbox now exist

Edited by charliem

The damping was very effective at stopping the horrible bass boom from the door.

The head unit is fine, but I eventually decided not to spend £100 on an ipod adaptor for it, when little more would get me something with superb ipod control built in. I now want to install new head unit! Further to Multiplexman's info above:

There is no switched live!

So, next thing is looking through the fusebox, as it is the same problem as for wiring the leisure battery. I need a switched signal and a high current point to tap into. 20A for battery charger, and 2x30A for the Alpine amp I might have bought for some rear speakers

I think this might be the only way to do it:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2899107&postid= 33219018

Edited by charliem

Hi MultiplexMan. Yea, I'll put a few points down. I'd imagine you don't need most of this, but for anyone else reading...

Before I throw the little card away, the speaker adaptor was Autoleads sak-3108. "For golf Mk V 2004> and Transporter 2004>" 

You probably know this, but for anyone else: Basically, you drill out the rivets (aluminium I think, but a steel pin, so clear out the swarf from the door - I avoided much then used water in a big syringe and I'm pretty sure with a light and mirror there was none left. It came out drain hole without problem - saves removing electrics from out door) in the plastic adaptor that the blaupunkt speaker is glued to, I replaced it with the above adaptor

The original speaker adaptors consist of a ring of plastic to which you could mount a 16/17 cm speaker. Only it would have to be a Very Shallow speaker. They therefore attatch an adaptor ring like the above which holds speaker forward from door, but glue the speaker to it. Hence having to remove the lot. You could just remove their adaptor fix yours to the ring of plastic they provide. I preferred the lot out.

Other than that - no probs. The door as mentioned elsewhere is an absolute !Things! to remove. The screws come out, but use a trim removal tool to pop the trim out. once pushed between plastic and metalwork they separate the trim holders so they come out easily. Just pulling the door may damage the odd one. It's like a two prong fork which is about 1/2cm thick if anyone trying this hasn't seen one. I used a skyes Pickvant one which is pretty tough plastic (not scrach, but fairly none break)

Depth? I think it was about 9cm. Appologies, but I have since forgotten. Even though I did it on Friday! Let's check though: my alpine S series are 63 mm (2 1/2 inches). There was definitely at leat a couple of cm behind them to window. I don't think many speakers are deeper, and frankly I'd not put really long throw speakers for extended bass in doors. They're crap cabinets and i'll use the high pass at 80Hz or so on my head unit to stop them doing any low bass. That frequency really isn't directional, so you it can come from rears (which in my case will be somewhere in bed unit I think, but mostly from sub).

Bit more work now I realise there aren't wires for tweeters (bet they gave you those MM, in addition to your ignition wiring if you're on a streak of luck). I'd still have opted for separates any day, as angle between door speaker and head is nearly 90 degrees, rubbish for decent sound. Crossover was included with speakers I got, which isn't hugely exciting as I have piles of inductors and caps from speaker building probjects. I'd have much rather had a bit of wire in the van for the tweeters. Sigh.

Assume you ahve elsawin? Grab handle off (you'll break part of cover clips, but doesn't matter), screws out of bottom and middle of door, then the door lifts up (but not too fast to damage wiring) Just enough room to peer behind and unclip wiring and bowden cable. Only other thing, when you re hang the door cards, make sure theyre right back against window. There's a position 'not quite there' which you can hang them in with a 1/2cm gap. Don't want to have to get the trim fasteners out a second time.

Edited by charliem

Not sure how relevant, and have no idea of what a 'pre-CAN' radio is, but my
'04 T5 has the switched live that MM spoke of, ie, the red and yellows
needing to be swapped over on the ISO connector, as the red is switched, as
opposed to the yellow. It won't switch off though until you actually pull the
key out of the ignition. Had a full install done on the van back in July '04, as
I too couldn't bear the sound of the standard radio, and have always been
spoilt by better systems ;) Opted for DLS components run active, with Phase
Aliante 10" subs. Sounds good now, but its no high end home audio system!

Mike.