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Not starting after cam install (2.5 TDI AXE)

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cramdub View Drop Down
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    Posted: 14 Sep 18 at 23:43
Good morning (at least it is down here)!

New to the T5 - recently bought a 2006 2.5 TDI (AXE) 4Motion with a dodgy cam. it cam home on a tow truck but started fine each tie even after sitting in the auction yard for a while.

So, bought a new cam and special tools from Germany and installed it with my father (retired qualified mechanic).

So, once we figured out that piston 1 is on the flywheel side, everything lined up wonderfully.
Cam tool in, crank tool in, cam drive gear mark facing the rear - all torqued up to spec. The head stayed on and we didn't touch the injectors or fuel rail etc. It has a new fuel pump (properly primed).

All back together, but it doesn't fire. Just doesn't seem to get fuel in.

Pulled the covers off (again - that intake manifold is a %$#@#%) and checked special tool alignment and everything lines up so timing is not the issue.

I have an OBDeleven pro - only fault it gives is that:
1. battery needed charging (12.4v) and that was after cranky - its been on the charger in between and
2.the engine/service light comes on (it was on when i bought it - I have only had the OBD for a day and haven't worked out how to clear it).

Tank pump primes, but we can't get over 1 bar after the tandem pump when we crank it (i.e. which is what the primary pump would do). Tried bypassing with external fuel pump to get 8 bar to the injectors but still no joy. there doesn't seem to be enough fuel in the fuel lines when we open them up.

So in a nutshell - no fuel is getting into the engine. the OBDeleven Pro doesn't show any faults other than those above.

So:
- Is it a fuel issue and can't build up pressure (faulty non-return valve or tandem pump issue)?
- Could it be electrical issue (although no fault code given)?
- Just need to longer cranky time?

Our next step is to check cam/injector clearance (just didn't have dial test indicator handy).

Or just WTF? I'm sure its a great van when it starts....


Anyone want to buy a 2006 T5 2.5TDI 4motion?
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gregozedobe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 18 at 05:42
One thing that might help - on a T5 the ECU won't tell the injectors to inject any fuel until the starter is cranking the engine over at (or above) a certain revs.  If your battery is a bit low it might not be supplying sufficient current for the starter to crank the engine fast enough.

There are a few threads on here about T5 starting issues, some of them might have some helpful suggestions.  eg check that diesel fuel isn't leaking into the sump via faulty injector seals or porous head casting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 18 at 14:30
I'm assuming it hasn't run out of fuel.. Tongue  Is the filter full?  If it's been off, check the fuel pipes aren't mixed up.  A quick squirt of Easystart will show if the cam part of the job is ok. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote t5power Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 12:25
I had a similar issue (not after changing a cam in fairness) but I had knocked the crank position sensor. Fiddled about with it a bit and never had a problem since.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 14:39
Hmmm, I'd wait and see if this poster bothers to come back or not:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 18 at 15:31
He was on the other forum and hasn't come back there either. :-(   One good thing though was that someone else on the same thread posted a great 'how to do' about repairing the tandem pump.  I was tempted to ask him if he would put it on our 'modifications' board.  Perhaps I will!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 18 at 09:49
Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

I was tempted to ask him if he would put it on our 'modifications' board.  Perhaps I will!  

Go for it - can't do any harm Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cramdub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 18 at 01:34
Hi Gents - no I'm back.
Have been on holidays trying to forget about the van under the house...still not moving.

So, the fuel filter has been replaced and primed. Tank is over half full.
We've checked using the special tools alignment of the crank and camshaft. They fit in their respective holes perfectly. The mark on the cam gear aligns with the rear of the block. We didn't touch the head at all. Re-did the cam/injector clearance - it was fine.
Bought a new battery - the old one dropped to 10.4V when cranking - maybe one cell was weak? The only error code was for the battery previously. Definitely cranks better now but still no life.
Have tried quick start spray and it does clang a bit but does not continue on.

Quite frankly I'm over it. It started fine (first turn of the key) beforehand even with the worn cam.

Going to make some inquiries to get it to a shop to maybe see if they can do anything and think about buying a toyota...

This might be a very brief foray into VW ownership..!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 18 at 12:44
It sounds like the cam has to be out.  Can you check the compressions?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cramdub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 18 at 23:09
Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

It sounds like the cam has to be out.  Can you check the compressions?  


That's what we initially thought. Maybe the cam bolt had slipped or something? Or timing marks on cam gear were out by a bit.

We used the proper tools for the install. They only lock in 1 way.
TDC for #1 using the crank tool.
Cam went in using the cam tool.
Cam gear markings align with rear of block.

We actually took rocker cover etc off to double check.

When we checked, the cam was out by 180o(!)  - Thought we had it sorted but of course a revolution of the crank brought everything to line - it all aligned and tools fit into their respective places.

It also cranks over happily - doesn't jam up and no metal on metal as you would expect if the cam was out (significantly).

haven't checked compression - we didn't touch injectors (other than check rocker/injector clearance).

Just provide fuel.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 18 at 10:49
Originally posted by cramdub cramdub wrote:


So, once we figured out that piston 1 is on the flywheel side, 

VW (and just about everyone else) number their cylinders from front of the engine. The only exception I can think of is if the engine is fitted the other way round like some Honda/Rover engines.

I haven't changed a cam in one of these engines but I did look at a manual online.  Is it possible that you do have it timed up on the wrong cylinder and that has been compensated for by the adjustment at the gear end?  I know that would have to be a lot of adjustment but if you look at this manual http://www.hinodetools.com/jtcdata/doc/FB2986%20INSTRUCTION.pdf ; it says if the cam tool doesn't line up check the crank is at TDC (obviously!)  but then it shows another procedure which I'm not familiar with.  Hard to tell without beings 'hands on' but it looks like there is movement that affects the alignment in some way.

I've read quite a few threads with a similar tale (new cam, won't start) and they either never report back or say the cam was 180 degrees out.  I feel your pain!  It's worth slowly going over everything else you have removed in case of a small oversight like leaving something disconnected (like the plug for the fuel rail).  You should also be getting cam/crank correlation codes but maybe your scanner isn't seeing them. 

Edit-  I think the ref I mentioned was in this one-  https://www.lasertools.co.uk/items/PDF/Products/5204_Instructions.pdf
Always handy to get a second angle on things!  


Edited by T5 TDI - 07 Oct 18 at 11:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cramdub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 18 at 22:37
so quick update.

the cam tool fits easily in the cam only 1 way (i.e. slides in easily with minimal resistance)-
But if you turn it 180 it gets wedged and kinda pivots on the slot, so only one side of the little slot goes in but not the other. However when you align in this way, the lobes at the cylinder furthest away from the flywheel are where they should be at No 1.....doh.

This is what my father said from the start, but everything we read said that the tools only fit one way. We got a bit of dodgey advice on a different forum suggesting that No 1 is at the flywheel side (again my dad scratched his head about it - knowing that was the opposite of evry engine he's ever worked on). so things point to No 1 at the flywheel end and a tool that only fits 'one way'.

So pulling the cam today, refitting with the cam tool in the 'doesn't quite fit' position (i.e. 180o out from where it is now).

so re error codes - my thoughts the cam sensor pulls readings of the cam gear - this was set with the mark toward the rear of the engine like its supposed to me. so these are in the right place relative to the crank sensor....but not the actual cam. that's the funny thing with these engines, there's nothing to locate the cam on the cam gear (ie a pin etc) and everything is lined up with the crank and cam tools and the marking on the cam gear. Anyway, not getting a an error code as the cam and crank markings correlate (but the cam is physically not in the right place).

fingers crossed. will let you know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cramdub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 18 at 07:20
took a fair bit of metal off the cam gear (it didn't line up or go into with the slots on the cam).
re-aligned everything and she started with the second turn of the key.

runs like a dream.
so cam was 180o out. doh.

so obvious now we can almost laugh about it if it wasn't stoopid!!
Live and learn!

Thanks for your help!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 18 at 09:29
Thanks for getting back to us Clap  This unusual gear driven engine does throw up some problems even for quite experienced guys.  I remember when it first came out some garages couldn't even find the water pump!  LOL 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cramdub Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 18 at 06:47
Should read - took metal off the cam tool (not cam gear) so it would fit in in the cam slots...
waterpump is next on the list....lol

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