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Brakes a bit spongeee!!!!

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ozyboy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 18:12
Its been a while since i was on this excellent forum....  Having recieved some excellent information previously i thought i'd chance my arm...
 
For some time, (don't drive the velle very much, as the mrs uses it more than me) i think the brakes have been a bit mushee... More than 50% of pedal travel before any noticable impact....
 
So, what have i done so far...
 
The front offside caliper slider section had parcially ceased up and therefore braking was on 1 pad only.  Sorted this, lubricated, etc etc....
 
Still no change to the mushee feel.
 
Clamped the 4 x  flexi pipes, to determin if i have a brake master problem or a problem at the wheel end....  result was a rock hard problem....
 
Unclamped the brakes, and re-bled the entire system with new fluid to make sure..... No change to the mushee problem..
 
Re clamped the 4 calipers, and one by one removed the clamps to determine which caliper maybe the problem.
 
Result was, both front calipers when unclamped gave a very spongee (greater than 50% travel, and not really solid at the end of the travel)
 
So, my question is, has anyone else had any caliper problems.....
 
Mine is a velle, just over 100K miles, new pads, and discs circa 18 months ago....
 
all suggestions welcome.
 
ThanksWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote energysolutions Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 10 at 20:33
I believe to bleed these vehicles correctly they need to be connected to VAG COM during the bleeding process (something to do with the brake pump being pulsed to get the best results)
 
You may well have another problem to get spongy brakes in the first place but a good bleed would be a good starting point to establish that you definately have a problem
 


Edited by energysolutions - 06 Feb 10 at 20:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hogrider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 07:34
I had a similar experience with spongee brakes, had my local garage do a fluid change whilst having MOT but the brakes were crap when I drove away, went back they had to redo it with the engine running apparently, all fine then.  Maybe the info helps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 08:18
If the pedal is really solid with the fronts clamped then that eliminates master cyl, rear brakes
and air in the ABS.  As ES says you can run the ABS pump with vag-com for a short while if air gets trapped there but it's hardly ever necessary and I don't think VW reccomend it. 
 
The only things I can think of are- bleeding the fronts while the rears are still clamped.
Try a pressure bleeder if you can get access to one.
See if it makes any difference which end of the front hoses you clamp.  (in case the hoses are swelling under pressure) you can usually see this if it's happening.
Check that the friction material on the pads isn't separating from the metal backing.
Check both of the sliders again and watch the calipers and hoses for anything unusal while someone presses the brakes on and off.  Check the wheel bearings for slack.
 
I've run out of ideas now.... LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Delfhill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 11:22
I had spongy brakes and this turned out to be the friction material of the pads slightly separating from the metal. The first part of the brake pedal travel was taken up by pressing the two together with a resultant spongy feel. New pads transformed the brakes, incidentally the pads were the original ones and only half worn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ozyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 10 at 12:11
Some good ideas...  Some i have covered and some not.....
 
Thought of swelling pipes, and therefore clamped as close to the body end as possible....  Had a good feel when under pressure and can't see any flexi's expanding....
 
Not heard of the backing material seperating, so i'm gona have a look at that, and a few of the other options.....
 
More later.
 
Cheers guys.Wink
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ozyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 10 at 15:16
Update:
 
With the engine running i've bled the brakes, with the opposite 3 clamped off just to make sure....  Made no difference.  Dismantled the caliper and slider etc, and re-assambled.....  Pads are circa 50% worn. and front are worn at eneaven rates, (running off to the edge).  TPS have kindly delivered a new set of pads today, so i'm gona give these a wirl before expensive calipers etc etc.
 
Hope its as simple as that, i have also heard that VW produce a slider kit, so may put one of those in as a next step.  i can feel a small amount of flex in the caliper, but it is just that SMALL.
 
Discs are good, but may dial guage them just to make sure.....
 
Over and out for now.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 10 at 07:24
Does it improve after several pushes on the brake pedal ?  If it does I'd suspect the disks are wobbling as they rotate, thus pushing the pads and pistons too far off the disk as you drive along.  Then when you press the brake pedal the piston has to move the pads a long way before they start to clamp the disk properly.
 
Putting a dial indicator on the disks may show up if that's really the problem, but it all sounds a little peculiar to me, could be a problem in the ABS unit maybe ?  If it is, I believe there is a place in the UK that fixes them for much less cost than what VW charges for a new'un.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ozyboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb 10 at 14:40
Getting better....
A fresh set of pads, and a damb good bleed, and its improved greatly.....  On re-assembly, the drivers caliper in the outside lever mechanism, has a small amount of play, more than the pass side.
 
So at great expense, and on top of the drive shaft order, i have requested, 4 x slider bolts, and 2 x springs.... 
 
Current thinking is the sliders are a bit worn, and by the time that gets to the outside, its increase 3 or 4 fold.
 
Everything lands tomorrow, so, we'll see if i can get it thown back together..LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kernow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 10 at 00:41
I just changed my brake fluid , i did need to have the engine running and a mate working the pedal to get good results .  I wouldn;t say the t5 is an easy vehicle to bleed and experience is really necessary .  new brake fluid really made a difference and my 2006 van has only done 42k
The pads friction material delaminating is a problem that can happen on vehicles that spend a lot of time standing unused .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 10 at 01:40
Originally posted by kernow kernow wrote:

.....  new brake fluid really made a difference and my 2006 van has only done 42k
 
Most types of brake fluid are supposed to be changed on time (every two years), regardless of distance.
 
On T5s it is also a very good idea to bleed the clutch fluid at the same time, otherwise the fluid near the clutch slave cylinder goes jelly like and you are up for a major job to fix it (the gearbox has to be removed as the slave cylinder is inside the bell housing Ouch )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kernow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 10 at 10:17
good advice on the clutch , thanks for that one .   I think brake fluid changes are the most neglected service item .  I haven't checked the interval that VW specify for the t5 but I am sure mine hadn't been changed before .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 10 at 16:42

It's two years regardless of mileage as Greg says.  And he is right about the clutch fluid too, even if you have the brake fluid change the nice clean fluid won't find its way to the vital clutch slave cylinder unless you get the clutch bled fully as well. 

I changed the brake fluid on a T5 recently and went on to bleed the clutch and what came out of the slave cylinder into a clean paper cup was full of gunge and black bits. I'd say it's well worth getting done on top of the brake fluid change.  It's a bit awkward to do so prepare to cough up an extra half hours labour, but it could save you hundreds. Smile   I don't think VW has any requirement to do this but it should be added to the list from what I saw! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Loon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 10 at 19:15
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

otherwise the fluid near the clutch slave cylinder goes jelly like and you are up for a major job to fix it (the gearbox has to be removed as the slave cylinder is inside the bell housing Ouch )
 
Only on the 2.5's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote veedubmad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 19 at 22:52
Originally posted by ozyboy ozyboy wrote:

Getting better....
A fresh set of pads, and a damb good bleed, and its improved greatly.....  On re-assembly, the drivers caliper in the outside lever mechanism, has a small amount of play, more than the pass side.
 
So at great expense, and on top of the drive shaft order, i have requested, 4 x slider bolts, and 2 x springs.... 
 
Current thinking is the sliders are a bit worn, and by the time that gets to the outside, its increase 3 or 4 fold.
 
Everything lands tomorrow, so, we'll see if i can get it thown back together..LOL

Did you ever find a solution to your issue ? I'm having the very same issue after replacing a defective abs unit!..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 19 at 09:54
Sometimes you can be lucky with a normal bleed but mostly you have to run the ABS pump. I think the instructions are on the Ross-Tech site but google will find a version. You do need VCDS or another diagnostic tool to do it though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote veedubmad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 19 at 12:41
I’ve got vcds and have tried both normal bleeding and the vcds initiated method that utilises the abs pump but still struggling!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 19 at 18:47
I'd try clamping the brake hoses one at a time to see if a particular caliper has a air trapped. You could also try clamping three and bleeding the forth. I know some people swear by power bleeders but I never had to use one, just dogged determination, noticing air bubbles and prepare to waste lots of fluid on a seriously bad one.
Are you 100% certain about the pipes on the pump because if one isn't sealed it may never build up enough pressure to obviously leak but just keep drawing in air on the return stroke of the pedal.
 
 


Edited by T5 TDI - 20 Feb 19 at 19:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Feb 19 at 19:50
Forgot to say, you should bleed the pipes at the pump anyway of course. Just treat each one as a bleed valve. Undo it about half a turn then pedal down and hold, lock up the pipe then pedal up. It takes quite a while. As pressure returns it gets easier. Sometimes old skool works better! 😊

Edited by T5 TDI - 20 Feb 19 at 20:36
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