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Front Stub Axle Issues

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williamkay View Drop Down
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    Posted: 24 Jun 16 at 10:16
So.. I messed up my stub axle by putting on a wrong size wheel bearing. 

I have got 2 replacements from Volksmagic, both the garage wouldn't fit as they said they were no better. The problem, they say, is that the bearing should sit on the stub axle and not rotate, only the actual bearings inside the wheel bearing should rotate - the inner ring should be static. This causes excess heat and bearings can last miles rather than years.

I understand this, but Volksmagic say that I won't get anything better as they aren't made anymore. and my garage should stop being so fussy. They have sold loads like this and they are always fine....

Is this dangerous? I don't know what to do? Sounds like my garage want me to write off my van for the lack of a stub axle. argh

thanks for any help
Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rowlesy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 16 at 21:29
find somebody else that knows what there doing.......

and how can you fit a wrong sized bearing? what did you buy?

UberFukz broke another!       sucky sucky five dollah!

always out numbered never out gunned!    RWS welding 07846 380 467 (worcs)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 16 at 12:35
There are 2 types. VWH has one which is from 84 onwards (https://www.vwheritage.com/shop/251498625/wheel-bearing-kit-T3-front-7-84/) and mine was an 83. I think it's just slightly too large so it span freely on the axle and scored or sanded down the metal as it span, giving way in maybe 50 miles. 
Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 16 at 12:38
251-498-625 I think I need.

VWH list this part as "Wheel bearing kit T3 Front >7/84". which to me means after (thats the greater than sign, not the up to sign). Which confused me I guess.

I stupidly bought "Front wheel bearing kit, T3 8/84- 251498625AS"

Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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czm View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote czm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 16:56
**

Edited by czm - 28 Jun 16 at 16:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 18:30
So, I contacted Julian at partsemporium.co.uk and it seems all of his have the same problem. He agreed its not a good thing to fit if the bearing spins freely.

I guess the next step is to have one machined? this is ridiculous.
Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tellytubby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 21:18
If it's only a small amount of clearance you could try something like loctite 270 on the stub axle to glue the inner race on.  Admittedly I've never tried it on a vehicle but I use this on various machines when the fit is too loose and haven't had any problems yet.

Machining to fit the available bearings is the ideal but as you will need to sleeve the axle you'll almost certainly end up using an adhesive of some sort anyway.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jun 16 at 22:17
Glue! Blimey OK tellytubby, good idea. I worry that it might not sit perfectly in place but i guess if I mounted it before the glue sets and got it into position it might help... hmm food for thought
Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bromy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 16 at 13:27
Got any photos? You could possibly sleeve the worn journal or metal spray it. 270 loctite won't take up any tolerance but will hold it tight if it's not too worn. What does it measure?
"follow the masses, do the opposite"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 11:45
The plot thickens, I am now even more confused.

I got a stub axle (apparently old) from volksmagic and a wheel bearing (old) from heritage...

...but when i put them together they dont fit (see pic below). 

This doesn't make sense to me as both the old and new inner bearing sizes seem identical?

new: Weight: 0.4040 kg Outer bearing 22x45.236 Inner bearing 41x68x17.6 Hub Seal 55x68x8
old: Weight: 0.4040 kg Outer bearing 19.05x45.237 Inner Bearing 41x68x17.6 Seal 55x68x8

Am i just not jamming it on hard enough?  Will it fit when pushed on using the weight of a wheel? 

Thanks, Will




Edited by williamkay - 07 Jul 16 at 11:48
Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bromy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 21:03
The bearing is an iterference fit on the shaft, it should not just slide on, ideally you need a bearing heater which will heat the inner race causing very slight expansion to slide on the shaft then shrink back to a snug fit once cooled. Other ways include dropping the bearing in boiling oil for a few mins or the crude way, hammer and drift making sure you only hit the race
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chappy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 16 at 21:16
Based on my past experience, a couple of things can happen here.

Stub axles can wear, due to bearing fatigue over time which can allow the outer race to move on the stub axle.
The result is marginally undersized stub axle diameter. Solution is engineering adhesive to lock the bearing in place on the stub axle. Apply during assembly, and it will go off once it's all built up. There's very little rotational force on the outer race once it's loaded, as the bearing is the 'slip point'. Engineering adhesive is widely used in my industry to lock bearing races in place.

Second scenario is a tight fit

Usually caused due to surface defects or pickup sometimes due to almost invisible corrosion, sometime due to mechanical abuse (not suggesting this is the case here!). Solution is a light rub over with a fine crocus or wet and dry (dry) paper. A light/very fine file can be used to work on high spots. Clean scrupulously afterwards.

I've had both scenarios with the latest needing bearing adhesive - that was six odd years ago and she's still going strong.


Edited by Chappy - 07 Jul 16 at 21:19
Back in the slow lane, yeah!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 16 at 19:18
Thanks for all the help guys. My worry would be gettint it back off when the bearings need changing again? 

I have sourced another one so will see if that is any better.
Will, 1983 VW T3 Caravelle 78PS 1.9 DG Engine, Watercooled
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bromy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 16 at 19:59
Same process, heat it up with a torch or punch it off with a drift or a set of bearing pullers if you can get your hands on some
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Westie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 16 at 23:17
Originally posted by Bromy Bromy wrote:

The bearing is an iterference fit on the shaft, it should not just slide on, ideally you need a bearing heater which will heat the inner race causing very slight expansion to slide on the shaft then shrink back to a snug fit once cooled. Other ways include dropping the bearing in boiling oil for a few mins or the crude way, hammer and drift making sure you only hit the race

The 'outer race' of both inner and outer bearings IS an 'interference fit' also called 'press fit' These 'loose' races are pressed or punched in to the disc.
The inner 'fixed' race is part of the taper roller bearing and is NOT an interference fit. It does have a clearance to the stub axle, albeit a small one. 
Spinning inner bearing races can wear down the stub axle resulting in excessive clearance.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote williamkay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 16 at 10:15
Yep, thats what I thought. The outer ones should spin with the wheel and I had to punch them into the hub for a snug fit. The inner ones should not spin and should sit nicely on the axle, not spin, but also not be forced on. Anyway thanks for all this, I am making progress, it will be sorted one way or another. Will
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bromy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 16 at 13:16
Have another look at the photo red westie. That is the inner race with rollers and casing, the inner race ie the id of the race should not spin on the stub shaft. The rollers are the slip point. Again with the outer race (race only) should not spin in the hub.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bromy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 16 at 13:20
Originally posted by Red Westie Red Westie wrote:

Originally posted by Bromy Bromy wrote:

The bearing is an iterference fit on the shaft, it should not just slide on, ideally you need a bearing heater which will heat the inner race causing very slight expansion to slide on the shaft then shrink back to a snug fit once cooled. Other ways include dropping the bearing in boiling oil for a few mins or the crude way, hammer and drift making sure you only hit the race


The 'outer race' of both inner and outer bearings IS an 'interference fit' also called 'press fit' These 'loose' races are pressed or punched in to the disc.
The inner 'fixed' race is part of the taper roller bearing and is NOT an interference fit. It does have a clearance to the stub axle, albeit a small one. 
Spinning inner bearing races can wear down the stub axle resulting in excessive clearance.


Martin

Your post seems to contradict yourself. I think the confusion came from myself calling the 'inner' outer race the inner race

Edited by Bromy - 14 Jul 16 at 13:38
"follow the masses, do the opposite"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Westie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 16 at 23:48
Originally posted by Bromy Bromy wrote:

Have another look at the photo red westie. That is the inner race with rollers and casing, the inner race ie the id of the race should not spin on the stub shaft. The rollers are the slip point. Again with the outer race (race only) should not spin in the hub.

Agreed....but then I never said it should spin on the stub axle, just that is wasn't an interference fit as you stated earlier.

Martin 
 


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