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Six speed gearbox bearing replacement pics.

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Vanorak
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    Posted: 12 Aug 18 at 22:36
Just thought I’d post some pics of the inside of my six speed gearbox while it’s in bits and I’m stuck waiting for parts. 
 
It has had a whine in 1st, 2nd and reverse for a couple of months.  It wasn't that loud (you could barely hear it with the windows closed) but with windows open in a narrow alley with walls either side you certainly could.
 
Once I got the (bloody big!) gearbox out on a jack (heavy subframe out first) The first thing I did was to dig the cap off at the back of the box to expose the 5th/6th bearing on the far end of the input shaft (the opposite end from the clutch) and my heart sank.  Water damage! 

  

Apart from a lack of oil or chunks of metal circulating there isn't much worse that can happen to a gearbox. 
 
Only the fact that I had just drained the oil and found it to look a bit dark but with no water and still a normal golden colour if you slopped it up the side of a clear container gave me any hope at all that I wasn't going to find the whole lot wrecked. 
 
When I got the case split (there is quite a bit more to this including special tools and some heat) I could see that there was no water inside and everything looked fine.  But the bearing was so bad that it had at some point been turning on the shaft and was loose enough to be rattled around by hand instead of being a tight ‘interference’ fit on the shaft.  I was fully expecting the bearing centre to have machined the shaft as I have always seen in the past but some nervous measuring today makes it look like the bearing has taken the wear.  The bearing in question is the one on top of the shaft that is second from the left.

 
 
I'm really thankful that the outer part of the bearing hasn't turned inside the aluminium case which would have meant replacing the case and setting the preloads for all of the taper bearings on the shafts and the diff which I’m quite happy to avoid.  The small magnet between the case halves had a small amount of (magnetic) sludge attached and a single (minuscule) bit of metal.  I reckon it’s probably a tiny chip from a gear, most likely reverse, although I haven’t confirmed that yet. 
 
The six speed gearboxes are generally thought to be more reliable and I agree but I remember Greg’s grim story of a few years ago where (I'm guessing) the same bearing did turn in the case and gradually chewed its way completely out.  So my advice is not to ignore any gearbox noises however small because they will only get more expensive!  

It looks like the water was caused by condensation on the inside of the cap over time.  Luckily the bearing has a seal on the inside which must have stopped the moisture from getting further into the gearbox.     
 
The bearing isn't available from VW in the UK currently so it’s coming from Germany in a few days.  I’m in no rush since both my elbows have swollen up like Popeye's.   It (Bursitis) is painless so far and was caused by some tree lopping I did a week ago but I don’t think I’ll get much sympathy from El Quack if I admit what I've been up to with this gearbox.  It’s a big bugger!

                             ****************************************

If you want to have go yourself (and I wouldn't recommend it unless you are very brave/foolish or have experience) here is a rough idea of what is involved once you have the gearbox out..

Drain oil and look at its condition.  Mine uses a 16mm multispline socket with the security pin in the centre for both drain and level plugs.

Dig out the cap at the back of the gearbox then remove the large outer bearing circlip but leave the smaller inner one in place. 

The selector control mechanism has to come out which is just a couple of bolts but it is quite long:


Both stub shafts out (6mm long allen socket needed) dig out the crud first so the socket seats fully).

Remove reverse light switch.

Remove the two 13mm nuts holding the reverse selector swivel.  These nuts are the obvious pair on the case about 4 inches apart.

Remove the slave cylinder.

All the case bolts both inside the clutch housing and outside.

The input shaft inside the clutch housing needs to be clamped so it doesn't get pulled as you split the case.  VW has a special tool which looks like an adapted bearing clamp.  I used a bearing clamp behind the splines with various packing behind to take up the slack and not damage the case.  Don't go mad when tightening the clamp.

A slide hammer needs to be inserted into a case bolt hole.  I didn't have adaptor for my slide hammer so I bolted an old thick towbar drop plate to the case and used the slide hammer in a nearby hole in the plate.  You need a mallet and a small lever but don't lever on the gasket face.

The area around the bearing needs to be heated to 100 degrees C before attempting the to remove the case.

The case slides off leaving the bearing in place on the shaft.

The bearing gets pulled off using more special tools and refitting the case requires the input shaft in the clutch housing to be supported in the other direction this time so that it doesn't get pushed outwards.

Although I mentioned the gasket face there is actually no gasket.  You need to use a special VW sealer which costs about £50 for what I suspect is a large amount.  I used Permatex Ultra Grey which was about seven quid but whatever you use it must be suitable for transmissions and be able to work fully in place of a transmission gasket under all conditions.  Your choice because if it leaks afterwards you will have to take the box out and re-seal it again. 

I think it's about £350 to get a gearbox firm to replace this bearing if you take the box to them, and around £750+ to have a complete set of bearings fitted if it needs them which is quite possible.  It can be much more if it has run low on oil or has bad gear damage.  To replace all of the taper bearings including the huge diff bearings means removing all of the shafts and setting the preloads for the new bearings using shims and more special tools. 

The above is strictly at your own risk.  I may have forgotten something vital! Wink
 
                                              ***********************


Edit- Just to close this thread, it's all back together with a new LUK DMF and clutch and it's perfect. :)  The input bearing on mine had been turning on the shaft.  When siding the new bearing's slack across the shaft I could measure 0.20mm slack with a dial gauge.  This would have meant a 0.10 gap all round the bearing. I used retaining compound made especially for this job.  It was Locktite 638 (This is very different form the old Loctite thread lock!)  638 has a high shearing strength but can only be used on a max gap of 0.25mm.  There is another Loctite product for larger gaps up to (0.50mm) but if it's more than that the shaft definitely toast.

A couple of other things I came across - There is tool needed to support the input shaft on assembly.  I think this is because during the bearing refitting the bearing should be a tight (interference) fit on the shaft so the shaft needs support.   This tool is not the same as the bearing clamp tool I used to hold the shaft to pull the case off the bearing.  I didn't have the assembly tool but you could make something up.  It pushes the input shaft (in the clutch housing) inwards slightly.  

I used some blocks to gently raise the shaft up fully because my case refitting was different, involving no force because until bonding the new bearing was going to initially be a loose fit on the shaft.  Also, I couldn't afford to bond the bearing on to the shaft off-centre and find that I couldn't then get the case back on. So I fitted the bearing into the case first.  I then degreased the input shaft and bearing and put the Locctite on the shaft before carefully lowering the case.  The bonding takes place in 30 seconds or so.  It is removable in the future but would take a puller I would think.

Because of the bonding time constraints, if you find yourself going down this route it pays to have your ducks in a row and do a dry run!  

Note that reverse selector support has two studs (mentioned earlier) they are on a hinge and that needs to be vertical so that the case can slide over the studs.  Also, make sure that the shaft is raised enough so that the circlip grove is fully showing before the bearing bonds to the shaft!

There is no gasket on the gearbox case.  VW do a large tube of sealer for £50.  I used an 80ml tube of Permatex Grey Supra for about £8.  I only used half.  I sealed the bearing end cap with this also.  Do your own research or just buy the VW stuff.  I have no leaks so far.. Smile 

Bearing OA5 311 183
End cap O2M 301 211 B
circlips OA5 311 183 and OA5 311 187 A 
About £46 + VAT

Oil (Fuchs Sintofluid FE 75w Synthetic) £40inc VAT.  VW oil came to almost £70.  (The jury is still out on non-VW gearbox oil)
Loctite £8
Permatex Grey 80ml £7
Complete LUK Clutch DMF and bolts £490 inc VAT


Edited by T5 TDI - 07 Apr 19 at 12:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 18 at 10:19
Good Luck !  

Unfortunately I do remember my "grim saga" with my T5 gearbox.  The thing that stood out for me was that my original gearbox was rebuilt by "the experts" and it didn't turn out at all well. The two things that made it undriveable was an intermittent inability to select gears (might have only been a selector adjustment issue), but worse was a severe shaking/shudder when coming to a halt.  In the end the warranty insurer had to cough up for a brand new gearbox (after much prodding and eventual mention of lawyers & court cases).

IIRC a few people advised me afterwards that it was quite difficult to get this gearbox working properly after a full rebuild.  Hopefully as you aren't disturbing clearances on the shafts etc you will get a good result.

Look after your body when doing all this heavy lifting, so far the human spare parts situation hasn't been all that good, with limited parts availability and what you can get is often not as effective and long lasting as the original.  ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Aug 18 at 21:03
A good specialist should be able to rebuild it without problams.  I think they don't see so many six speeds ('cause it's the 5 speeds that keep causing the trouble) so maybe they don't have the experience.  I reckon I could rebuild mine given plenty of time but I'm sure hoping not to have to!  

I've never heard of anyone else having what happened to my elbows and yet according to the web it's quite common.  It's even nicknamed 'Popeye elbow'.  And trust me to get two of them at the same time! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liamo333 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 17:57
Hello! Gearbox is nackered in my T5 AXD, 6 speed :(

No interest in taking it apart myself, but living in France where mechanics are extortionate and being well equipped im keen to do the replacement myself.

Is there anything particularly special about removing the transmission? Can it be done on axel stands? We also have a pit. 

Seems to be: 
Remove driveshafts
Remove LHS engine mount and support engine
Take off a few more bits and pieces

drop engine down a little, unbolt transmission and pull it out.....?

Thanks very much :)

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 21:14
Originally posted by liamo333 liamo333 wrote:


Is there anything particularly special about removing the transmission? Can it be done on axel stands? We also have a pit. 

Seems to be: 
Remove driveshafts
Remove LHS engine mount and support engine
Take off a few more bits and pieces

drop engine down a little, unbolt transmission and pull it out.....?


A bit more than that..Tongue  Subframe off first.  You will also need to undo the rack bolts and the anti-roll bar bridge bolts as well.  Take the two front engine mounting bolts off and the rear engine mounting off too because all of these things are attached to the subframe.  The two front exhaust bracket bolts need to come off and the gear cables and their bracket plus the reverse switch wires.  Note that there is a hidden bolt inside the starter hole!  

You can do it on axle stands (I did) but remember since you have taken the subframe off you have removed the natural place for the stands to fit.  The only place left is the front jacking points.  You really have to make no mistakes supporting this amount of weight, especially not jacking it up on tarmac or any slope.  Make sure the stands are up to it. Dead

I have an engine support beam, but if you are using a jack on the sump it is going to get in the way of the second jack you will need to take the box out.  The six speed box is so heavy that once you get it out you can barely lift it to get it on the bench.  You will need a jack to get the subframe out 'cause that's a big bugger too!  I used two jacks (front and rear) to put it back in so I could keep it level and not sliding around.  You should mark the subframe so it goes back in the same place.

You will have to undo the coolant bottle and take the intercooler pipe below it off (unplug MAP sensor first)  to get access to top of the box.  I took the ABS plug out in case the loom got tweeked.  Other than that, it's simples! Big smile 

 


 




Edited by T5 TDI - 30 Aug 18 at 21:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liamo333 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 11:43
Thank you very much!

I'll deliberate weather Im psyched for the task or not now :p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 12:08
As gearboxes go it's quite easy because the subframe is out of the way so there is plenty of room for the gearbox to come straight out.  I'm sure it's a doddle done on a lift with two big blokes and a transmission jack but it does need some planning when you're on your own.  If you have done gearboxes before then it's all just standard stuff except for the extra weight.  Smile

One thing I forgot is if you are replacing the DMF don't forget the new stretch bolts and torque them up correctly.  Also the clutch is one of those self-adjusting pressure plates.  You are supposed to use a special tool, not just the normal aligning tool.  I used the method in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdVagqumpbs which worked fine.  If you use any power tools or tighten more than a quarter of a turn at a time you will make the self adjuster deploy incorrectly.      


Edited by T5 TDI - 31 Aug 18 at 12:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liamo333 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 12:17
Dont need to go near the DMF, or the clutch. Just had them replaced :/ Along with the cylinder head, camshafts, turbo, water pump, glowplugs and a few other things..... $$$$$$$

I'll give it a bash sure why not :p I think once the transmission is changed then itll basically be a new van haha!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 14:41
Ouch! Ouch  What was the gearbox doing?  Don't tell me the bearing had popped out of the end of the box like Greg's..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liamo333 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 14:57
Hmm ok so!

At first in reverse it was really jumpy, as if the breaks were locking on and off really hard.

It crunches a bit going into second.

In neutral when you release the clutch sometimes its ok and sometimes the whole van starts to vibrate!

Then had it on the motorway the other day and it shit itself. Started grinding really bad and van lurching back and forth. Had to pull the stick hard to get it out of gear!

Now when i start it and ease off the clutch it just stalls and dies :( Its currently parked pretty funky a few k's from my house. 

Had to press the clutch with a stick and push it into a space :/ 

Basically i think the whole thing is nackered. Changed the oil the other day and there was only 1l in there.

Sad times :(

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 18 at 09:18
Once they run low in oil everything gets damaged from the heat and the cost of all the parts needed makes it uneconomical to repair.  Cry   

The cost of a new box is so much that I think if mine had been beyond repair I would have looked around for second hand because my van is 15 years old.  I would have taken some time to try and find one with a genuine history.  If you go that way it's probably worth digging out the back cover/seal (£6) on the 'new' box to have a look at the bearing just to make sure it still has its grease and looks ok because it is the one thing not lubricated by the gearbox oil.  In fact it has a seal on the gearbox side which isolates it from the gearbox.   
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