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Broken again. T5 manual gearbox failure (6 speed) |
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gregozedobe 
Vanorak 
Joined: 22 Dec 06 Location: Canberra, Oz Status: Offline Points: -998266 |
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 Topic: Broken again. T5 manual gearbox failure (6 speed)Posted: 26 Oct 12 at 15:05 |
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My van has just journeyed home on the back of a flat-top (recovery) truck. It hasn't needed to do that for several years now, but I guess it was my turn for some mechanical problems.
Symptoms were: Quietish grinding/whirring noise when drive train was under load (both accelerating and decelerating). Nothing when coasting (clutch in or out). Engine speed dependent, not road speed dependent. Medium pitch sound (not a high pitched squealing, not a low pitch clonking). Engine performance quite normal, gear changing and clutch normal. I'm thinking, I wonder what this new noise is ? It wasn't loud enough to make me think that it was about to suddenly self destruct so I kept driving - WRONG ! I'm about 30 minutes from home on a quiet country road when I slow down to turn onto a major highway. I depress the clutch and it goes completely to the floor and I can't change gears. So I pump the clutch pedal and it sometimes comes up a bit, but still quite low and not properly disengaging. So I switch the engine off, select reverse, back up off the road to a safe position off the road and switch engine off to stop moving. Lift bonnet, see there is plenty of brake/clutch fluid in the shared reservoir, the gear selector on outside of gearbox is moving freely, but clutch pedal is decidedly dodgy. Look underneath, smallish quantity of gear oil around passenger side front suspension (not clutch fluid). Oops, that can't be good ! Ring road side service people, wait an hour or so, helpful man notices I have already installed the front recovery eye and suggests I might be a little pessimistic. He then pokes around for a short while and says, "You were right, it's definitely broken, I'll organize a recovery truck for you, where do you want it taken ?" Wait for another hour, load van onto flat-top truck, taken for a (quite bumpy) ride home. Bad luck about the two interstate dog agility trials I was heading for this weekend :( So, what does the Brick Yard T5 brains trust think has gone wrong ? Do the above symptoms sound familiar to anyone ? This is an almost 6 year old 174hp R5 BPC engine, 6 speed manual gearbox, 110,000 km (68,000 miles) of almost all highway cruising. Not much stop start work at all, not many drag strip take-offs. Medium load all the time. Clutch fluid replaced at 2 years and 4 years. My suspicions point to the DMF letting go, with consequent damage to the clutch and possibly a hole in the gear box housing. Another possibility is the bearing on the input shaft of the gearbox has let the side down. I guess I will find out when I can get it looked at by my local VW dealer. About the only good thing is that it is covered by the extended VW warranty I bought 3 years ago (which expires at the end of January) :)
Edited by gregozedobe - 08 Nov 12 at 23:57 |
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ELVIS
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Silence is golden, gaffa tape is silver Joined: 04 Nov 06 Location: Promised Land Status: Offline Points: 9982 |
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Posted: 26 Oct 12 at 15:25 |
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Drive shaft inners? dont they have previous for rounding off/splines getting ground off etc etc?
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gregozedobe
Vanorak
Joined: 22 Dec 06 Location: Canberra, Oz Status: Offline Points: -998266 |
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Posted: 26 Oct 12 at 17:28 |
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Definitely worth considering, however I don't think it is worn/slipping driveshaft inner splines (stub axles from the gearbox). Drive from engine to wheels is normal (except for clutch not disengaging), no slipping or clunks. IIRC when driveshafts fail you get clunks when letting out the clutch from a standstill, then partial slippage, and then no drive to wheels at all. Plus the involvement of the clutch pedal seems to point to issues further back in the drivetrain.
And yes, driveshaft stub axles are one of many well known T5 "foibles". In fact, I had been considering replacing mine before they failed as a prophylactic measure (or at least getting them looked at and regreased).
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max and caddy
Vanorak
Joined: 12 Dec 09 Location: Lancaster..uk Status: Offline Points: 4866 |
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Posted: 26 Oct 12 at 17:40 |
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My guess is the gearbox deep groove bearing has shat itself...less common on a 6 speed but can happen, have look at the gear oil drain plug...coverered in bits of metal?
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T5 TDI
Vanorak
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Posted: 26 Oct 12 at 21:23 |
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Bad news Greg. Glad to hear you have the warranty though.
 Your initial description sounds like classic gearbox noise. And when you said about the clutch not freeing it makes it sound like first motion shaft/input shaft/primary shaft (choose your own name!) bearing failure leading to the oil seal leaking gearbox oil on to to the clutch and out of the bottom of the bell housing. Just my guess though. . And of course, I know you will be getting the DMF checked even if it isn't implicated.. Edited by T5 TDI - 26 Oct 12 at 21:31 |
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2004 2.5 174
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Vanorak
VW Customer Service Joined: 18 Apr 10 Location: Belfast Status: Offline Points: 2517 |
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Posted: 26 Oct 12 at 22:30 |
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I have read the symptoms and they sound like when Agnew's fucked up the DMF install. They did not tighten a flywheel bolt correctly and it dropped out and into the pressure plate assembly, wrecking the pressure plate, flywheel, fork and slave cylinder.
You could pump the clutch and at times ok and thenwould not disengage. I gotta beed blasted internal bell housing with metal shards. The bad news is there was no oil loss. I had the clutch line blow and spill fluid onto the under shield. The drive shafts usually give some warning, symptoms are, clutch fully down and when you engage gear you feel a clunk as the wear on the shafts jiggles before rounding off leaving you stranded. I had the lay shafts fail before in Transits but you usually could get fourth and burn the clutch to get home. Pull the gearbox plug as Max says, metal shards be glad you have a warranty. I know what's above is not hearting but our thoughts and prayers are with you.
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gregozedobe
Vanorak
Joined: 22 Dec 06 Location: Canberra, Oz Status: Offline Points: -998266 |
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Posted: 27 Oct 12 at 02:48 |
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Thanks for the thoughts guys. I'll have to wait until Monday to get it booked in to be looked at.
In the meantime, what other things should I get done while it is in bits ? I'm thinking: Check DMF (yes T5 TDI, I was thinking that too), Check Clutch plate, bleed & inspect Clutch slave cylinder (while it is accessible) replace Gearbox oil (funnily enough the van is due for a service and I was thinking of replacing the oil anyway) check and (re) grease gearbox output Splines (to driveshafts) According to peej61 grease is part no "G 060 735 A2" and you need to replace the hub nut as well "WHT 005 286" check Driveshafts
Edited by gregozedobe - 27 Oct 12 at 02:54 |
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T5 TDI
Vanorak
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Posted: 30 Oct 12 at 21:29 |
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Any news yet Greg? I gather it's already Wednesday morning in topsey turvey land :-)
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2004 2.5 174
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gregozedobe
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Joined: 22 Dec 06 Location: Canberra, Oz Status: Offline Points: -998266 |
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Posted: 30 Oct 12 at 23:48 |
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The van goes for a ride on a flat-top truck next Monday to be looked at (my dealer is altogether too busy).
I'll let you know what they say once they've had it apart. My current favoured theory is gearbox bearing RS.
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gregozedobe
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Joined: 22 Dec 06 Location: Canberra, Oz Status: Offline Points: -998266 |
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 10:34 |
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Well, my dealer's mechanics finally got time to look at my T5, and the news is ........... bad.
I'm told it looks like 6th gear made a desperate bid for freedom (by trying to go directly out some cover at the back of the gearbox). Maybe it (6th gear) thought it was shouldering too much of the work (my van spends at least 90% of it's time in 6th gear on highways/freeways). So now the gearbox will be pulled down and the list of parts compiled, then ordered in, then wait for arrival, then fitted etc etc, unless they decide there is too much damage to economically fix, in which case I might get a complete new gearbox (my preferred option given all the bits of metal that have been circulating through everything). Sorry about the lack of technical detail, but I am only able to speak to the service manager, not the mechanic who actually works on the greasy bits. So I it looks like I won't be driving my T5 for a while. And thank all the motoring gods for still being covered by the VW extended new vehicle warranty, this sounds like it will be very expensive. Anyone else heard of similar failures in T5 manual 6 speed gearboxes ? I can't remember reading of any.
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Kev The Gas
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 10:45 |
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Good and bad news I suppose, heres hoping for a new box!
My Gp has started to judder when pulling away, at low speeds. I took it to the stealer yesterday but it wouldnt do it for them  , we then got into the conversation of how to proceed further:- I authorize them to remove the gearbox, they then check the DMF and clutch. If they decide it is worn ( 21,500 miles) I have to bear the cost of all repairs. If they decide it is component failure VW pay. Why do I feel nervous about this process??? Think I will live with it for a couple of months and see what happens.
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gregozedobe
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Joined: 22 Dec 06 Location: Canberra, Oz Status: Offline Points: -998266 |
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 11:20 |
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The classic symptom for a failing DMF is severe juddering when reversing slowly up a slope. If yours does that then that is probably where your problem lies. I don't see how you can distinguish between "worn" and "component failure" on a DMF that is allowing too much movement, but at 21,500 miles I don't think a DMF should be worn enough to need replacing (unless your driving conditions are particularly brutal). Some other causes of judder when letting out the clutch could be: - Too low an engine revs (try keeping them above 1,800 rpm) - Too high revs/too much accelerator causing spinning wheels/axle tramp (try driving more gently) - Soft engine mounts - Oil/contamination on clutch plate/flywheel (this would most likely be on the first few uses of the clutch when cold, then go away).
Edited by gregozedobe - 08 Nov 12 at 11:21 |
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Berisford
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 15:48 |
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Well Greg, all that bad press you enthusiastically banded about regarding the auto boxes and your favored 'manual box' goes tits up. Forgive me matey, but I did have a wry ironic smile when I read your update post. Still, like you say, thank the lord for the extended warranty!
I've no such
luxury on my 8, going on 9 year old 'auto' box, I'm in the lap of the gods, so
to speak! Edited by Berisford - 08 Nov 12 at 15:50 |
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Senate Square, Helsinki, 12 June 1993.
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Vanorak
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 17:10 |
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How much does the extended warranties from dodgy parts r us VW cost?
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max and caddy
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 18:14 |
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There is no cover on the back of a 6 speed gearbox....just the two halves of the case, has a bearing failed?
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mickeyverwood
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 19:48 |
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Ok, well I just had mine in for a 44k service, and I mentioned a judder when pulling away, mostly when cold but not always the case and the written response was " Clutch judder, they will judder in cold damp conditions" Thought i would get them to take a look while its still in warranty, then when it all goes tits up, at least I can say I told you so
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T5 2L 180
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Vanorak
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 20:02 |
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Beware, I got mine looked at in one wagon just before the warranty ended. As soon as the warranty ends so does any come back. Six months later the W****r in Agnew's did not tighten the bolt and it drop out screwing the pressure plate, friction plare, flywheel, thrust bearing and fork.
Make sure you know it its a proper mechanic or a bunch of monkeys doing the job.
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CLONKY
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 20:20 |
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Mine didnt judder at all in cold damp conditions for the first 2 1/2 years of its life. It only got this sensitivity to the weather when the dmf was knackered.
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gregozedobe
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Posted: 08 Nov 12 at 23:53 |
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I still say the odds favour T5 manual gearboxes over Autos, as I seem to have been the unlucky BY'er with the only manual gearbox on the BY that has shat itself. But being realistic, I suppose you have to count in DMFs as well (those definitely being the work of the devil himself). But to properly assess the odds you'd have to know what percentage manual gearboxes failed, and compare that with the percentage of autos that have given up the ghost. And if you really wanted to get accurate factor in the distances covered as well ( I think the proper measure is number of failures per 1,000,000 miles driven or somesuch). And I can only rely on that extended warranty until the end of January 2013, then I'm on my own  Despite this failure, I still have a strong preference for manual gearboxes (I'm a bit of a control freak).
I've no such luxury on my 8, going on 9 year old 'auto' box, I'm in the lap of the gods, so to speak! Have you been changing the transmission ATF at regular intervals ? That seems to help a lot with the autos. I think VW have finally given up on the extreme fiction that it is a "sealed for life" job. I hope yours keeps going forever with no major problems, I keep running into people who run T5s like that (just not me, unfortunately).
This is the proper "Extended VW new vehicle warranty" offered by Volkswagen Australia, not a dealer-based "Dodgy brothers almost everything expensive excluded" type cover. It cost me $Aus 2,400 (it was only $1,300 2 months before I bought the warranty, but I missed out on that excellent price as it had gone in price up just before I purchased it ).
Edited by gregozedobe - 09 Nov 12 at 00:05 |
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Berisford
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Posted: 09 Nov 12 at 08:39 |
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[QUOTE=gregozedobe]
I hope yours keeps going forever with no major problems, In 2007 I sorted a 'first car' for my neice, a 3 year old Daewoo Kalos, 1 owner, service history. It's never missed a beat, passed all its MOT's since. I was chatting to her last month, we talked about the little motor being a 'good un' and I asked who she uses to service it. "A local garage MOT's it, and it's just been done" she said. Long and short of it is the Daewoo has never been serviced in 5 years, 55,000 miles! (82,000 in total) Uses about pint of oil every year. Stupid yes, but lucky or what? We only paid £3k for it! Update; I insisted she got it serviced, her local garage did oil, plugs and filters for £100. Truly cheap motoring I'd say, though she does pay a heavy price for insurance. Edited by Berisford - 09 Nov 12 at 10:56 |
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Senate Square, Helsinki, 12 June 1993.
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