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Dual Mass Flywheel uncovered

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    Posted: 28 Oct 17 at 07:22
Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

Ouch yet again Festa.  Cry  That's a big stop.  Are you happy having the liners done again?   VW insist they shouldn't be sleeved at all but I'm not sure why.  Maybe there isn't really enough room.  

Re the pics- Since Photobucketgate I've been using https://imgur.com which seems ok.  

Ally block...thinking now it's something to do with flexing in the block. I know what vw say but then vw has now stopped suppling the bottom end which means third party suppliers only :( material removed makes for a weaker block
Blocks at the moment are anywhere upto £1000 bare and the one I have has ben modded, but the linings hadn't been fitted right. The flexing of the block under combustion had worked the cylinder lining down the bored hole to it's destruction and the possible flex had cracked the lining around the register.
I'm having to have some custom ductile linings made with a thicker wall which is going to be 4-6 weeks so the block is being sent back to me so I can get a crank girdle made to help stenghten it all back up.
List of jobs is a top torque plate, a gearbox torque plate so to tighten up before the crankshaft caps are machined, the crankshaft palte has to be water cut for clearance and then when all bolted together has to go for linie boring/honing to make sure my new crank is lined up correctly.
lwb 174,Wagner intercooler, rosten rods, balanced bottom end, GT2262v hybrid turbo, 2.7bar boost with full ss 76mm decat exhaust, itg filter, 440ft lbs@288bhp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T5 TDI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 17 at 23:28
Ouch yet again Festa.  Cry  That's a big stop.  Are you happy having the liners done again?   VW insist they shouldn't be sleeved at all but I'm not sure why.  Maybe there isn't really enough room.  

Re the pics- Since Photobucketgate I've been using https://imgur.com which seems ok.  
2004 2.5 174
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote festa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 06:43
It now appears the dmf has seperated and the rivets that hold the halfs together have sheared off. Thats because the caste liners that have been fitted has failed and the piston has got stuck at the top, basically the engine has stopped suddenly by throwing number 4 rodAngry
lwb 174,Wagner intercooler, rosten rods, balanced bottom end, GT2262v hybrid turbo, 2.7bar boost with full ss 76mm decat exhaust, itg filter, 440ft lbs@288bhp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote festa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 09:56
Was going to start stripping the van today until I looked outside...roll on summer but I've got to get on with it. Don't want to take the subframe off but it maybe easier? there's not alot of room that side with a five pot and I haven't got a ramp.
I've also done two engine rebuilds this year on the same engine hense why I don't really want to take it out again. I also have know idea how much power is going through this dmf as I haven't had the van running long enough to get it on a dyno, each time it's stripped I bed it back in and then take it to the mappers but this time it has only lasted 880 miles since the second rebuild and 1hr 40 mins since I replaced the turbo to manifold gasket that was holding the power back. I can't cut this sachs dmf open either as it's got to go back but I really want to see what has failed.
I'm not sure if the paddle is a bit fierce as it does grip well being a ceramic....can't use a single mineral as it doesn't take long before it starts slipping and can't find anyone to do a smf with twin disc. Don't know anyone who has fitted a smf to a 5 pot pd engine to see how long the gearbox will last, the only bonus is that it has been balanced better over oe and hope that's enough to reduce the harmonic's.
How do we post picture's on here? does this site host? or is it third party?
lwb 174,Wagner intercooler, rosten rods, balanced bottom end, GT2262v hybrid turbo, 2.7bar boost with full ss 76mm decat exhaust, itg filter, 440ft lbs@288bhp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 17 at 13:17
Sorry to hear of the troubles you've been having  Dead, but thanks for the useful info on T5 DMFs.  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote festa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Sep 17 at 08:42
I know this hasn't been added to for over a year now but I've changed from the Lux dmf over to the sachs dmf for the reason of the blocks in the sachs dmf reducing coil binding because of the shorter springs. I did cut open my original Lux dmf and found the the longer springs had coil bound and had snapped in various places
I did notice however that the Sachs dmf feels much heavier that the Lux and that possibly is a good thing for a diesel engine to keep momentum and try to smooth out the firing pulses, being mine is a 5 pot engine. However the Sachs dmf was pulled from the engine after around 4000 miles due to the engine needing a rebuild and I decided that I would get the bottom end balamced. In doing this it became apparent that the balancing would not be able to be done with this Sachs dmf due to the amount of wear within a short time frame. Another Sachs dmf was purchased and was balanced in it's own right and fitted to the engine, Not sure of the tolerance that the manufacturers use but it was out but not sure on the percentage, I now have a fully balanced bottom end....Yes I know the mass changes when the rpm goes up but you have to start somewhere.
This now brings me to my latest dilemma...
Sachs uprated cover plate with a Sachs 4 puk paddle clutch and the Sachs dmf that's been fitted has now failed Cry
The Sachs dmf has seperated as the starter ring which is attached to the engine in stationary and the rest of the clutch assembley including the center of the dmf where the cover plate fixes to spins around in itself (engine stationary and gearbox in sixth, one wheel on ground, spin the other wheel to see things moving).
It appears that the stops of the dmf has failed in a very short time frame of less than 2000 miles, apart from a grinding noise and a jump in the van when on the motorway the other night I was up in sixth at around 75mph ( indicated speed) the engine stalled itself.
On investigation the next morning the engine is still jammed solid and can't be moved clockwise or anti-clockwise so all I can assume at the moment is that fragments of the dmf( whatever parts) have become wedged somewhere in the bell housing. I'm hoping it hasn't done any damage to the back of the engine or gearbox bell housing. All the inspection for the moment has been done through the starter hole in the gearbox and it means the engine has to be dropped again for the third time this year.
I will report back in but I think the best dmf imo is the oe Lux for the time being.
lwb 174,Wagner intercooler, rosten rods, balanced bottom end, GT2262v hybrid turbo, 2.7bar boost with full ss 76mm decat exhaust, itg filter, 440ft lbs@288bhp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 16 at 03:19
Good news ! (apart from the expense of course).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 16 at 12:23
Got my Caravelle back about a week ago... 
DMF was fine. Pressure plate had ripped off its center!
So now it runs again.
/Maggy, The (Male) Swede

T5 Caravelle 2,5 TDI AXE LWB 174hp (210hp)LWB 4motion -07

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 16 at 18:58
I have a drive shaft change down to 45 minutes from lifting on the jack to setting down. I think I should be on a ale Mans pit crew. The shaft splines are softer than toffee. It VW gives u the bird about support target their Twitter market Facebook page. They don't like negative feed back with repair costs and want u sorted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunny43.5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 16 at 13:41
I would agree with Greg , check the drive shafts as Al has said the mongrels are made of toffee . My work van is a manual petrol 2.0 and DMF has be rooted for around 8 years . As someone above said the weight of the van seems to contribute to the failure , I tried to reverse up small incline all those years ago and it was a struggle as the van was shuddering and afterwards the dopey DMF shuddered every time you try to reverse up even the smallest of inclines . I changed the clutch plate and throw out bearing some years ago but never realised the stupid DMF thing was like that , I just assumed it was like the good old clutch plates with all those small spring around the inner core . As for the drive shaft splines mine was clunking when down shifting and when I would select reverse , I replaced it and the old one was close to shearing off look here to see the pics http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f136/2005-2-0-petrol-manual-t5-drive-train-spline-question-94796-2.html Oh and by the way that same DMF is still in there and the van is now at 290000 kms  One  last thing as mine is a petrol powered , I cannot see the logic in VW fitting one into an engine that does not throb like a diesel , maybe the bastards just got lazy and fitted them to all and sundry with no regards to actual needs . A solid one is on my shopping list .

Edited by sunny43.5 - 14 Apr 16 at 13:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 12:08
I've read similar reports, IIRC it was the pulsations/vibrations of the power delivery that was causing the problem.  The springs in the DMF is supposed to smooth it out a bit.

Have you checked the splines between the gearbox and the driveshaft ?  This is a common failure on FWD T5s and if these go you end up with no drive at all (there is usually a fair bit of clonking and excessive play before they finally let go).  Just noticed you have a 4-motion, so Flywheel/clutch does seem more likely to be the source of your problems.


Edited by gregozedobe - 10 Apr 16 at 12:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 08:44
Originally posted by Maggy Maggy wrote:

Does anyone know of a solid flywheel conversion for a 2,5TDi 174hp 4-motion?
Mine has lost all drive to the wheels so I guess it is the flywheel and/or clutch.
Gears can be changed with no clutch even if the engine is running.


I have heard reports a solid dmf damages gearbox and drive shafts because there in no soften of the delivery of the torque from the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 16 at 08:39
First Dmf went at 35ish, this was replaced under warranty but left a pressure plate bolt in the bell housing 65ish and this destroyed the flywheel, pressure plate, friction plate, slave cylinder, hydraulic hose final bill£1500 inv vat. Now at 122 starting to slip, new flywheel, friction, pressure plate, bearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 07:59
Does anyone know of a solid flywheel conversion for a 2,5TDi 174hp 4-motion?
Mine has lost all drive to the wheels so I guess it is the flywheel and/or clutch.
Gears can be changed with no clutch even if the engine is running.
/Maggy, The (Male) Swede

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmautosport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 09 at 07:33
Originally posted by smidsy smidsy wrote:

hello and welcome bmautosport
 
that sounds a very nasty and expensive repair if the flywheel is just spinning all on its own. it should be attactched to the crank even when failed.
 
in regards to the LUK/sachs difference, i simply do not know if the design shown in the youtube film is the one used in replacement DMF's for the T5. i just hope so as it seems a better design.
 
i had no choice in what was fitted and only came across the sachs film after the event but am of the opinion that anything must be better than what was was originally fitted.
 
can i recommend that you start a new thread with your van problems as you might find a lot of usefull and helpfull advise comes you way in respect of the fact you've just had the van and it broke the very next day. you may not need to worry about the cost of repair after all.
 
and get the beers in.
 
smidsy
 
I am a little worried that the fly wheel is just spining and hope that the end of the crank had not broken! After some calling around for prices i have now taken in to a main dealer that has quoted £750 +vat for a new fly wheel and clutch inc all the new bolts needed etc and all the labour for fitting, which is very cheap and why they now have it, mainly cause of the 2 year warrenty on the parts. I am just dreading the call to say it needed more than just clutch and fly wheel! The van was from a private seller so i have no comeback on it.
 
If i get time today i will start a new post with more details of what happended.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roadmark69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 20:58

My first DMF went at 27000 miles and the van was not 2 years old.It is not the first to go at this sort of mileage.

I have also spoken to other owners who have said theirs have gone  when reversing.Not sure if there is a pattern to it but I know of 4.
Mark Coates - Purveyor of mats for T3, T4 and T5 - E-mail - 07917542685
http://www.megavanmats.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smidsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 20:41
hello and welcome bmautosport
 
that sounds a very nasty and expensive repair if the flywheel is just spinning all on its own. it should be attactched to the crank even when failed.
 
in regards to the LUK/sachs difference, i simply do not know if the design shown in the youtube film is the one used in replacement DMF's for the T5. i just hope so as it seems a better design.
 
i had no choice in what was fitted and only came across the sachs film after the event but am of the opinion that anything must be better than what was was originally fitted.
 
can i recommend that you start a new thread with your van problems as you might find a lot of usefull and helpfull advise comes you way in respect of the fact you've just had the van and it broke the very next day. you may not need to worry about the cost of repair after all.
 
and get the beers in.
 
smidsy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcguyver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 20:23
Hello bm. Bad luck with the dmf, at least you've not got the uncertainty of when it'll break.
 
I was talking to the parts man at a VW van centre the other day and the subject of dmfs came up. He said that they now supply Sachs as oem parts, the only differences between buying from VW or a motor factor are that VW charge £500 instead of £300, but, give a two year warranty as opposed to one year from Sachs.
 
I don't know about labour costs. Try a forum search ^.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Syncost Alot. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 09:38
[QUOTE=roadmark69]I think VW should look at this.[QUOTE]
 
They have!
It took many years of development & research to design a flywheel that will break-down at 90,000 miles....or Just out of warranty! And equal a labour intensive dealer repair! Didn't they do well! Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmautosport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 09:20
Hi Smidsy (and others as this is my first post!)
 
Very interesting read, i have just brought a 54 plate 174 done 95k and i think the DMF has blown apart, only got it on the 29th of august and the next day it went on me, to say i was gutted was an understatement! I was just pulling in 4th geart and all of a sudden it went (like the sound of something jolting) and the engine just reved up then went to idle while free wheeled to a stop. We are now pretty sure that it is the DMF as the stater motor just spins the fly wheel and also had the starter out and fly wheel it free, i and am hoping it has not taken anything else out.
 
My question is that you say the sachs one is better than the original LUK one but how do you know this? I am at the point of buying a new one and dont know what will be best to go for.
 
Any input would be great, also where did you get yours done and what was the total bill for the labour on it so i know what i should be paying.
 
Regards
 
Mark
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