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gregozedobe View Drop Down
Vanorak
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Keys, Transponders and Remotes
    Posted: 27 Feb 07 at 12:21

Hello all you knowlegable T5'ers out there,

Does anyone know what sort of transponders are used in the latest (MY2007) T5's ? 

I bought a new remote flipkey off eBay ($Aus83.00 vs $Aus480.oo from my dealer), but according to my dealer it has an incorrect transponder  (the little chip that tells the immobilizer that it is OK to let the engine run for more than 2 seconds). 

Both transponders (working and non-working) look the same (a small glass cylinder 3mm X 13mm).  I think they are a Megamos, as the new spare key I bought from my dealer had a label that said "Megamos transponder", and the dimensions and appearance suggest that they are Megamos. 

I found a source (Hickley Valtone) for a Megamos Crypto T6 ID48 (MG10) glass for a reasonable price, so I was thinking of buying one and trying it out - my dealer won't sell just a transponder by itself .  Of course VW may have a special new version that hasn't appeared in any aftermarket catalogues yet.

It seems to pretty easy and not too expensive to buy new "blades" (the key part) and new "remotes" (the push button part, but careful you get the correct part No), but transponders seem to be the tricky bit of the whole equation.

Any suggestions or ideas ?



Edited by gregozedobe
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Yardie
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 07 at 14:53

Only use genuine VW keys.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 07 at 15:52

Seems like a good deal, but if it don't work................

Do you not get 2 keys/blips with T5's in Australia?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 07 at 22:31

Originally posted by Insider Insider wrote:

Only use genuine VW keys.
I DID buy a plain key from VW.  But even that was $Aus 187.00 (plus $Aus 27.00 for programming), and the flipkey remotes are outrageously priced here in Australia ($Aus 480.00 each !!!). How much do VW UK charge ?

I dislike paying way too much for a product from a near-monoply, particularly if it is possible to get exactly the same article (made by the same manufacturer) for a more reasonable price.  I'll live with the inconvenience of shopping around for the satisfaction of trying to save the $$$'s.  

I like a challenge, so I'll keep looking, I'm sure I can eventually get a complete spare (working) remote for under 20% of the price VW Australia want.  Even if I buy a couple of transponders that don't work along the way it will still be worth the trouble.  I'll let everyone know of the eventual results (including what didn't work, what did work and who are good suppliers).

Originally posted by Berisford Berisford wrote:

  Seems like a good deal, but if it don't work................

Do you not get 2 keys/blips with T5's in Australia?

I only said it hasn't worked so far.............

Yes I did get 2 keyflip remotes with the T5, but I like to have spares (especially with how easy it is to lock your keys in a T5). 

I find if I have spares (of anything) I almost never seem to need them, and it is also reassuring to have them around.  I tend to keep my vehicles for a long time (typically 10 years +), so I don't mind spending a bit of time and money on initial setup.

I asked the original question hoping there might be someone on this list who knew something about T5 transponders - anyone ?



Edited by gregozedobe
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Feb 07 at 22:35
SORRY GREG MATE NO IDEA
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 07 at 15:59

On the subject of keys, is it possible to get a plain 'dead' key cut, purely for unlocking the door?  I'm interested in this from a watersports perspective so I can carry one in my buoyancy aid without fear of drowning it (I nearly did that to one of my current ones when the waterproof case sprung a leak).  I know that french filth do plastic 'back-up' keys for the cars that use the card (ie. Laguna).  Anyway, any info would help!  Cheers.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 07 at 16:05

Yes Veedurb you can get one cut, my local locksmith's sorted one out for me. I take mine with me when boating ETC

 

Jumped Ship to a Vito but I hear a 2021 T6 calling, only real difference is the Vito cab is more car like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 07 at 21:43

Originally posted by Veedurb Veedurb wrote:

  On the subject of keys, is it possible to get a plain 'dead' key cut, purely for unlocking the door? 

Veedurb,

You sure can.  The cheapest source I found for blanks was on eBay (check the picture to make sure it is the same profile as your key), but your locksmith may have blanks (without a transponder) for a reasonable price (mine didn't). 

If you have still got the black label that came with the keys when your van is new it has the key code on one side and the Vin on the other. A good locksmith can use this key code on their computer-controlled key cutter to make a good-as-new key (without duplicating the wear on your old key).  On my label it had something like:

"42 

08231"  and the key code was "8231"

Just remember the new key might start your van, but the engine won't run for more than a second or so before the immobiliser stops it with an error message and probably the immobiliser warning light on (car/van with a key).

Hope that helps.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 07 at 18:41
It sure does help!  My local key place didn't have the blanks and wasn't sure about cutting them if I got hold of one.  I'll try an find a place that can but it seems a good idea!  Cheers fellas.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 07 at 22:53
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

 A good locksmith can use this key code on their computer-controlled key cutter to make a good-as-new key (without duplicating the wear on your old key).  On my label it had something like:

"42 

08231"  and the key code was "8231"

Hope that helps.

Cheers Greg, I now have a key that'll start your van, so next time I'm in Oz...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 07 at 23:04
Originally posted by orangina orangina wrote:

Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

 A good locksmith can use this key code on their computer-controlled key cutter to make a good-as-new key (without duplicating the wear on your old key).  On my label it had something like: "42  08231"  and the key code was "8231"  

Cheers Greg, I now have a key that'll start your van, so next time I'm in Oz...  

Actually O, no you don't. 

Note I said "something like..."  You now have a key that MIGHT start someone's VW (not mine), and even if you did manage to find that particular vehicle, the engine will cut out straight away and display the "immobiliser" warning light (because it won't have a transponder that the ignition is programmed to recognise).  Trust me, I know a little bit about these dammed transponder doo-hickeys now

But feel free to look me up next time you are in Oz.............

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 07 at 08:19

While we're on this subject. I took my " never been used in 3 years ", spare key to Wayside to give them whilst they did my turbo, and it had " dropped " its code resulting in, as grego says, total immobilization.

The guys at the dealer said its a good idea to use your spare key to start the van once in a while.

2002 Discovery TD5
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 07 at 10:07
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Actually O, no you don't. 

 Trust me, I know a little bit about these dammed transponder doo-hickeys now

But feel free to look me up next time you are in Oz.............

 

Greg,

  it's good to hear that we're expanding the expertise on this site - soon we'll have an expert in every field relating to the T5...

As for the invite, thank you very much - you never know!!  



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Mar 07 at 12:16
Originally posted by Fifty pence Fifty pence wrote:

While we're on this subject. I took my " never been used in 3 years ", spare key to Wayside to give them whilst they did my turbo, and it had " dropped " its code resulting in, as grego says, total immobilization.

The guys at the dealer said its a good idea to use your spare key to start the van once in a while.

Hmmm, doesn't sound quite right to me.  A quick digression into VW key theory so everyone can understand what I'm talking about later in this long and somewhat technical post (anyone with better knowledge feel free to correct me if I've made any incorrect statements, I've only been interested in this subject for the last couple of weeks):

Your VW "key" actually contains 3 components with 3 quite separate and distinct functions (assuming it is a remote flipkey):

A  The key or blade that is a flat piece of metal with a squiggly groove like a ski run (don't you love the techo terms) machined into both sides.  This is the bit you poke into locks and turn to lock/unlock and start your engine (but not to allow it to continue running - see C transponder below).  This blade no electronics in it at all, despite what some people may tell you.

B  The remote control part.  This has two (or three) buttons on it, an LED and only locks/unlocks/turns alarms on/off.  It has a button battery in it (which can go flat) and an electronic circuit. This circuit is the bit that gets b*ggered if it gets wet inside.  THIS HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH STARTING YOUR ENGINE (sorry for shouting, but so many people think it does).  Each time you press a button the LED should flash (if it doesn't, try a new battery -CR2032). 

On some VW's this can be programmed to open/close windows and sunroofs too (another project I'm looking at)

If you try to operate the remote buttons too far away from your car it can get out of synch with the van's receiver.  Your owner's manual describes how to synchronise it again (you shouldn't need to go to a dealer).  Replacements can be purchased cheaply on ebay, but make sure you get one with the correct part number.  (ie the same as your working ones)

C  The transponder (yes, you all knew I'd get around to this one eventually, didn't you ?   ).  This is a small electronic component that lives inside the plastic near the blade.  Mine looks like a small glass grain of rice about 3mm in diameter, 13mm long.  If the immobiliser doesn't recognise an "authorised" transponder in close proximity to the ignition lock (think within 1"), then it cuts out your engine just after it starts and flashes the immobiliser warning light (yellow car with a key underneath). 

Mechanical/electrical faults with transponders and associated transmitters/receivers seem to be quite rare, but incorrect (unrecognised/unauthorised wrong type) transponders seem to be all too common with people trying to pay less for their keys (just ask me  ).  I'm led to believe that the latest VW transponders are programmed (set) to a particular vehicle somehow, and once set cannot be used with a different vehicle, not even one of the same type.

Programming the immobiliser to recognise a new key/s can only be done by a VW dealer logging on to VW's mainframe (it's actually a good security measure, if you lose a key you can disable that particular key's transponder by leaving it off the authorised list of keys, however it will still allow entry to your van).  You must bring ALL your keys to the dealer to have them recognised (otherwise the absent key/s will no longer be recognised by the immobiliser).  I think there is a maximum of 4 keys per immobiliser at any one time.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

OK basic VW key theory lesson done with, now I can respond to 50p's post.

AFAIK, once the immobiliser has been programmed to recognise a particular transponder, that transponder stays recognised until the immobiliser is reprogrammed for new/different transponders.  An existing key (transponder) could be left out of the recognition process.  I can understand the remote not working, but not the transponder.  That leads me to some questions:

1  Did this "never used" key ever work correctly (ie get the engine to start and continue to run) ?

2  Please describe the precise symptoms of "total immobilization" ie what do you do, what happens, and in what sequence.

3  Do you know if a dealer has ever done the immobiliser key recognition process (or been fiddling with the ECM codes, as it is possible to alter how many keys the immobiliser recognises by changing specific code values) ?

4  Do you have any other keys that will start and run the engine (besides the one that you normally use) ?

5  Are you still covered by warranty ?  (a new keyflip remote from VW would set me back about $Aus480.00)

Lastly, I do agree that it is a good idea to use your spare key/s once in a while (but to check they still work, not to "Make" them keep working, if that fine distinction makes sense ?).

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 07 at 13:44
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

  I'll live with the inconvenience of shopping around for the satisfaction of trying to save the $$$'s.  

I like a challenge, so I'll keep looking, I'm sure I can eventually get a complete spare (working) remote.  I'll let everyone know of the eventual results (including what didn't work, what did work and who are good suppliers).

SUCCESS AT LAST   

I finally found a place that sold me some transponders that worked !  Only $US 5.00 each (plus $Au 27.00 for my dealer to program the van to recognise all the keys, original and new).

If you have some keys with no/wrong transponders and you want to try the transponders that worked for me, I got mine from ABC Lock and Key ( see http://www.abclockandkey.com/catalog/i42.html )  There seem to be plenty of sources of blank keys and remotes/flip keys (see ebay) , but this was the only source of transponders that bothered to respond to me.

If you are looking at remotes, make sure you get one with the same part number as your existing (working) one.  The relevant numbers on mine are: "HL0 1J0 959 753 CT 434 MHz".  You will also need to tell the van's ECU to recognise the new remote (it is described in the owner's manual).

I had been told that VW had started to put special pre-coding on their Megamos Crypto (48) transponders, but that doesn't appear to be the case for my van at least.

So I got a new ordinary key for a total of $Au 55.00 (key + transponder + key cutting) vs VW's price of $Au198.00; and a remote/flip key for $Au 135.00 vs VW's $Au 480.00

But the missus did point out that after all the time I spent searching and fiddling around even if I only charged my time at $10.00/hr I would probably have been better off just paying VW   

 



Edited by gregozedobe
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 07 at 20:54

Greg,

You'll be doing well if you manage to get a key coded so that it actually starts the van.  I have Vag Com and I could code keys with it if I had the correct code from the dealer in the past.  But now it seems they've made it impossible by using a system where the car needs to phyically be at the dealers and connected to the factory.   http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/faq_4.html#4.15 

It should be for the good of all of us but I help siding with you about the monopoly bit.  It must be my cynical gene cutting in but the cost doesn't seem to bear any relation to what it must cost them to produce the millions they do.  I do still hear stories of keys being made but most are probably rubbish and being an honest sort of a chap I wouldn't know anything about it and I wouldn't say if I did.    

Good luck and let us know how you get on! 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 07 at 21:08

Just caught up!  I thought you were trying to bypass the dealer altogether.  It would be interesting to see if UK dealers will code aftermarket remotes.  Has anyone here tried?

As far as I know you can't do anything to make the windows close WITH THE VW REMOTE without using an aftermarket alarm or other gadget.  Of course we can all wind up the windows and set the alarm at the same time with the key by turning and holding it anticlockwise.  

There was a story about a woman who called the AA because her VW wouldn't start.  It ran for a second as you said then cut out in that classic immobiliser fault way.  It turned out the kid had eaten the chip!  They work by proximity so the AA guy held the little varmit close to the ignition lock and that allowed the key to work.  (Once the engine is running it carries on)  Apparently nature took its course and the chip was retrieved later....

  



Edited by T5 TDI
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 07 at 21:34

Greg, good on you for sticking at it until you sussed it out, just proves that you s shouldn’t always listen to the dealers, will you be applying for a job with an professional vehicle stealing gang now you sussed out these transponders and immobilizers Wink 

Jumped Ship to a Vito but I hear a 2021 T6 calling, only real difference is the Vito cab is more car like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 07 at 09:10

Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

Just caught up!  I thought you were trying to bypass the dealer altogether.  It would be interesting to see if UK dealers will code aftermarket remotes.  Has anyone here tried?

No, I'd figured out that coding transponders to the vehicles ECM required the special software logged on to VW HQ.  I don't mind paying the $Au27.50 for this job, as I believe this requirement makes our VW's much more secure.      

 

My dealer didn't say anything about working with "aftermarket" keys, but (depending on the source) they may be unable to tell the difference.  Some of the web suppliers use keys and flip heads made by the manufacturer who makes them for VW.  AFAIK the remotes for our vans are only made by Hella, so the dealer wouldn't be able to tell whether you purchased it from VW or off the web.  Besides, as long as they are making money on the work they are doing, they should be happy.

Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

As far as I know you can't do anything to make the windows close WITH THE VW REMOTE without using an aftermarket alarm or other gadget. 

This is my next project, but so far I have only established that both my dealer and VW Australia agree that it can't be done - of course that isn't enough to discourage me  (after all, they were also quite sure I wouldn't be able to get my aftermarket keys and remotes working properly). 

What I am looking for now is someone who knows about "long coding" for T5's (or Polo's, once source told me they have basically the same ECM and programming).  My reasoning is that if you can wind the windows up or down by holding the driver's lock in the lock or unlock position, then the capability may be there to do the same by holding down your remote lock or unlock button.  I'll let you all know when I either have success or give up trying.

Originally posted by Mr Hedgehog Mr Hedgehog wrote:

  Greg, good on you for sticking at it until you sussed it out, just proves that you s shouldn’t always listen to the dealers, will you be applying for a job with an professional vehicle stealing gang now you sussed out these transponders and immobilizers Wink 

I don't claim to be able to do anything special with transponders and immobilisers, only organising to get them to do what they are designed to do.  The need to bring an official VW dealership into the "gang" does make the whole business case for a VW stealing gang rather less attractive.  It also leaves a large, obvious trail for the authorities to follow and catch you with. 

What I would advise everyone on this forum is:  Have a spare key and look after your remote flip keys VERY carefully, as replacing them at short notice for a reasonable price may be near impossible (especially at night and on weekends).

If anyone has specific questions, please feel free to ask.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr 07 at 10:01
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Originally posted by T5 TDI T5 TDI wrote:

As far as I know you can't do anything to make the windows close WITH THE VW REMOTE without using an aftermarket alarm or other gadget. 

This is my next project, but so far I have only established that both my dealer and VW Australia agree that it can't be done - of course that isn't enough to discourage me  (after all, they were also quite sure I wouldn't be able to get my aftermarket keys and remotes working properly). 

What I am looking for now is someone who knows about "long coding" for T5's (or Polo's, once source told me they have basically the same ECM and programming).  My reasoning is that if you can wind the windows up or down by holding the driver's lock in the lock or unlock position, then the capability may be there to do the same by holding down your remote lock or unlock button.  I'll let you all know when I either have success or give up trying.

T5 doesn't use long coding in any of its ECUs. There is no way of coding it for convenience window opening or closing.

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