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EU...in or out...

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Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Titus A Duxass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 11:48
You can get a nice blue passport.......
Bollocks to it all!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 12:00
The colour wasn't mandatory - Croatia chose to keep their blue passport. The decision to change to a burgundy passport was taken in 1988 by the UK government under Margaret Thatcher.

Surely there must be more reasons to be cheerful than that.


Edited by clift_d - 05 Feb 20 at 13:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 14:26
I think making you happy is impossible, the EU is not the only market. I believe that there are 1 or 2 countries outside of the EU that are prosperous. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 15:17
Try me...  I'm easily persuaded...  evidence and facts does it for me every time.

As you say, I can reel off an almost endless list of downsides and negatives about Brexit.

Surely you can tell me a few ways in which Brexit will be a benefit?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 15:44
I said above there are other markets bigger than the EU and in a better financial position than the EU. We won't have to prop up Greece and the other catastrophesin the EU. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 16:40
The EU is the largest value single economic block in the world. Twenty-seven of the thirty-five countries that the UN classifies as Developed Economies are in the EU. Of the remaining eight developed economies, the EU has trading arrangements with Iceland, Switzerland, Norway, Canada and Japan. Together they represent over 50% of our trade exports. The remaining three developed economies - the US, Australia and New Zealand represent around 20% of our trade exports, and we currently trade with them through the EU's agreed WTO schedule of tariffs.

We lose all our current trading arrangements with these developed economies on the 31st December unless something else is agreed in time - that's 70% of our export market figuratively gone overnight.

With regard to the Greek, and the other Eurozone bailouts, the UK wasn't in the Eurozone and so we didn't contribute a penny towards those.

There must be something else we can be happy about. Weren't we promised an extra £350 million per week for the NHS? Please give me something concrete to celebrate ...


Edited by clift_d - 05 Feb 20 at 16:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 18:34
Look at GDP growth in the G20 countries.
Apart from Mexico, 
Germany, Italy and France are the worst performers in 2019  that's got to be a good move to go away from. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 20:51
I’m sorry, but GDP growth on its own is not really meaningful statistic unless you view it in the context of the actual size of the economy.

Take as an example Rwanda which according to the IMF had a 2019 GDP growth rate of around 8.5%, which on the face of it looks sensational. The only problem is that their total GDP in 2019 was only around $30 Billion. This means that the GDP growth rate only represented an expansion of their economy of approx $3 Billion from 2018 to 2019. Also, it is worth noting that the average annual per capita Rwandan income is only $2450, which suggests that they aren’t going to buying many of the cars or much of the steel made in the UK, or lots of the Welsh lamb or Scotch whisky we produce.

Germany on the hand only had a 2019 GDP growth rate of 0.1%, which looks a little lacklustre until you consider that their total GDP in 2019 was around $4,440 Billion, i.e. nearly 150 times the size of Rwanda’s economy. This still meant growth in 2019 of around $100 Billion which is 30 times the monetary growth in the Rwandan economy. They also had an average annual per capita income of around $46,750 dollars which means that their consumers could afford to buy lots of the types of goods we make, which is the reason they were our second largest export market after the US, with their country taking around 10% of our exports.

Throwing away our trading ties to such wealthy EU developed economies, on the basis of their supposed lacklustre GDP growth performance, in order to pursue trade deals with emerging or struggling economies, that superficially appear to have great potential, is not a strategy that will secure the future of UK businesses or the jobs of UK workers.

Surely there must be some Brexit positives that we can really get behind and celebrate.


Edited by clift_d - 06 Feb 20 at 05:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 00:08
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

Surely there must be some Brexit positives that we can really get behind and celebrate.


Celebrate good times c'mon! Pig Nuke Dead

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 08:41
we have all just given up on you. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 19:29
I’d love to be able to say that it surprises me that Brexit supporters cannot actually name any concrete benefits of Brexit, but I had my suspicions that would be the case.

Come on - surely there must be something about fishing quota allocations. Or maybe reduced protections for workers is something that you’re looking forward to. How about a bonfire of H&S regulations? Bendy bananas perhaps? Give me something to understand the devotion of the Leave campaigner to this big change.

Anybody?


Edited by clift_d - 06 Feb 20 at 19:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 21:49
Maybe we are just pissed of with you.
We can now have our elected government make our laws. 
We can now allow our fishermen to fish our waters, if we so decide
We can now allow the people we decide to come into the country, be it strawberry pickers or nurses if we decide. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 22:02
Tje list goes on and on
We are in control of our own destiny. 
Nobody has said that it was going to be easy. Just as when we joined the COMON MARKET and we shat on all the commonwealth countries that replied on our trade but they servived and some have prospered. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 22:26
Great! If the list goes on and on, you presumably won’t mind posting some of that list here, as I’m having a problem finding any demonstrable benefits.

Our laws have always been made by elected representatives. Very little of the legislation coming from Brussels was automatically enacted, and then it had usually been partially drafted by UK civil servants, voted on by the MEPs we elected and sent to Brussels, and given unanimous approval by the Council of Europe which included representatives of our government. The stuff that wasn’t automatically enacted was brought into UK legislation through the drafting of UK Acts of Parliament written by, and voted on, our elected MPs. Let’s not forget that our current PM is looking at ways of reducing the power of Parliament and the UK Courts to scrutinise the executive - which suggests that the idea that Brexit was about the sovereignty of our institutions was a lie. 

With regard to the fishing industry, you may agree that it’s a bit strange how much this became such a crucial factor in Brexit debates given that it makes up less than 0.1% of our annual GDP, but in any case fishing quotas were assigned to boats by the UK government not the EU so if smaller family boats weren’t getting quota it was because ministers were favouring the big factory ships. The irony is that the British public doesn’t want to eat the fish caught in British waters - 3/4 of the fish caught is exported to the EU - around 700,000 tonnes, and we import twice that amount in fish that can’t be readily caught in our waters, like cod and haddock. If we lose access to those markets that is unlikely to benefit UK fishermen either, irrespective of who can fish in our waters.

With regard to the Commonwealth, Canada, South Africa, Cameroon, Zambia, and the 12 commonwealth members of the Caribbean Community already have trade deals with the EU, and India is in the midst of negotiations. The EU, through the Lome and Cotonou Agreements, has also extended some preferential trade access to many developing Commonwealth countries, so I’m not sure that there will be sufficient to be gained from looking to the Commonwealth to make up for what we’re losing from elsewhere. 



Edited by clift_d - 07 Feb 20 at 14:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Feb 20 at 22:29
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

We can now have our elected government make our laws.


Do you actually read any of the links folk previously posted on here?
Elect your own law makers, what like these?



They are not elected and have often actually been rejected by the electorate, but the corrupt system still allows them to gain power and become un-elected bureaucrats.

And there's loads more being made up to the house of lords if you actually bother to look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 20 at 11:05
Your arguments are poorly put
A you argue it will take years to get a trade deal then you use commonwealth members trade deal with the EU as their good poimts
B why is fishing only 1% of GDP bucause the EU shacked our fishermen

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 20 at 14:17
What I'm saying is that the idea we needed to leave the EU to be able to trade with Commonwealth countries does not make sense, because over the years we have pushed the EU to negotiate trade deals with many Commonwealth countries. We will lose access to these trade deals on 31st December, and will then have to renegotiate them all from scratch.

The fishing industry isn't 1% of GDP... it's not even a tenth of that... it's less than 0.1% of GDP. I'm not saying our fishermen haven't had a raw deal from the Common Fisheries Policy, but even if you doubled or tripled the size of the fishing industry it would still only be worth a tiny amount in comparison to manufacturing or services, both of which stand to lose substantially from Brexit.


Edited by clift_d - 07 Feb 20 at 16:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 20 at 14:30
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

We can now allow the people we decide to come into the country, be it strawberry pickers or nurses if we decide. 

There have always been provisions in EU law to allow us to control immigration of EU citizens if we'd wanted. The Free Movement Directive (EU Directive 2004/38/EC) would have allowed EU citizens to remain in the UK for up to three months from the date of entry, only provided they did not become a burden on the welfare system in the UK, and if an EU citizen did not meet one of the requirements for residence set out in the Directive [employed, self-employed, self-sufficient, student] then they would not have a right to reside in the UK and could be removed after three months.

The reason why successive UK governments chose not to implement this in UK law in some form has never been explained - maybe it was down to their reluctance to spend money on proper In and Out border checks, or maybe it was because it was seen as being a bit heavy handed. In any case, the fact that EU movement was uncontrolled was a UK government choice, not an EU requirement.

Come on. Somebody please give me something to be truly grateful about Brexit for, and not all these old slogans which can be easily debunked with a couple of quick google searches..


Edited by clift_d - 07 Feb 20 at 14:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb 20 at 15:54
When you really look into many of the issues that led to Brexit, you find it is our own elected representatives who should have been blamed not the EU.

For example, one of our MEPs was on the European Parliament Fisheries Committee for three years but only attended once out of forty-two possible meetings, and they didn’t participate in three crucial votes on the reform of the Common Fisheries Policy, even though they were in the building at the time of all three votes. The name of this MEP is ... Nigel Farage.


Edited by clift_d - 07 Feb 20 at 16:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 20 at 19:38
Take back control and we can build our own ships...

Oh! Stern Smile

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