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EU...in or out...

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gregozedobe View Drop Down
Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 20 at 23:49
Seems some people still can't accept what the majority actually voted for (the red herring about the unelected privileged people didn't distract me at all  ;)  )  

But I guess all the bleating and moaning will mean bugger-all as Boris is off and racing towards brexit Thumbs Up
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Yardie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 11:05
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Seems some people still can't accept what the majority actually voted for (the red herring about the unelected privileged people didn't distract me at all  ;)  )  

But I guess all the bleating and moaning will mean bugger-all as Boris is off and racing towards brexit Thumbs Up


Ermm ... Erm, it is not correct to say that the majority of the people voted for Leave.

Leave won the 2016 referendum, but the figures were:

- UK residents able to vote who voted Leave = 17,410,742
- UK residents able to vote who voted Remain = 16,141,241
- UK residents able to vote but didn't vote = 12,948,018
- UK residents not able to vote = 18,099,999

That's 17,410,742 UK residents who voted Leave, against 47,189,258 UK residents who did not, so it is inaccurate to say that Leave is the preference of the majority.

More recently, in the 2019 general election, the majority of votes cast were for parties who wanted to retain close ties to the EU:

- UK residents able to vote who voted for Leave supporting parties = 14,854,835 (Conservatives, Brexit, DUP)
- UK residents able to vote who voted for Remain supporting parties = 16,628,260 (Labour, LibDem, SNP, Green, Sinn Fein, Plaid Cymru, Alliance, SDLP)
- UK residents able to vote but didn't vote = 15,757,624
- UK residents not able to vote = 18,848,296

Again, the number of UK residents who couldn't or didn't vote were significant, but again the numbers do not support the contention that a majority of people voted for Leave.

You may or may not like the outcome of these votes, but those are the facts.
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Yardie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 11:16



So much for the Brexit dividend...


Edited by clift_d - 14 Jan 20 at 11:17
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gregozedobe View Drop Down
Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 11:39
Please go back and read I actually said, not what you tried to twist it into ie I said:  "what the majority actually voted for" so I was clearly discussing the people who voted, not the people who weren't motivated enough to vote.  If they cared enough to express an opinion either way then perhaps they should have made the effort and voted ?  And anyway, you can't assume that all the non-voters didn't support Brexit, which is what you are attempting to imply.

To me it is obvious that Boris received a clear mandate (in terms of votes actually cast), so he is pressing on with Brexit, and time will tell whether that is a good thing or not .....what you or I or anyone else thinks/wants isn't likely to make much difference to what happens.


Edited by gregozedobe - 14 Jan 20 at 11:46
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Yardie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 12:15
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

And anyway, you can't assume that all the non-voters didn't support Brexit, which is what you are attempting to imply.


I didn't imply anything.

I merely pointed out that Leave reflects the clear preference of only a minority of the UK population, and that there is no evidence to support the contention that it is 'the will of the people', which is what you had implied in your post.

With regard to the general election, the last time our 'first-past-the-post' system produced a government with a national mandate, i.e. more than 50% of the vote, was Stanley Baldwin's Conservative victory of 1931. Every government since that has won with less than 50% of the votes cast, i.e. without a national mandate.

Most recently Boris Johnson 'won' the 2019 election with a 43.6% share of the vote, and to paraphrase what you said in your previous post, you can't even assume that all those who voted Conservative are supporters of Brexit, which is what you implied.
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Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 12:36
Sorry, but you did try to imply that there wasn't majority support for brexit when clearly there were more voters supporting Brexit than were opposing Brexit.  

You can't simply include non-voters as not being supporters of Brexit, stats don't work that way just because you want to say so.  If that was the case I could say that all the non-voters WERE supporters of Brexit and you won't be able to supply any supportable figures to disagree with me.  Can you ?

IMO it is hard to go past votes cast as the will of the people - you obviously believe there is some better method so good luck with getting that adopted.

Moan, groan, bleat and whinge all you like, it won't make any difference to what happens when Boris gets going.  But be aware, maintaining this attitude may prolong your obvious unhappiness with the way things have turned out 

BTW I'm just a dis-interested observer who lives a long way from Brexit, but I find it amusing how some people are still trying to find all sorts of ways to twist around the fact that the (voting) majority of your fellow citizens voted FOR Brexit - twice ! (as is their democratic right).


Edited by gregozedobe - 14 Jan 20 at 12:37
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Yardie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 20 at 13:36
Ermm   Erm... no.

I merely highlighted that one cannot make an assumption that a majority of people in the UK support Leave on the basis of either the 2016 Referendum or the 2019 General Election, as the figures just don't support it. You may choose to characterise this as moaning, groaning, bleating and whinging, but I suspect that's more likely to be projection on your part.

Unfortunately we don't have compulsory voting in the UK like you have in Australia and so there will always be doubts about the views of those who, for whatever reason, didn't or couldn't vote. I suspect that we would have seen less division in UK politics over the last three years if the referendum had been compulsory, or if the government had formed some form of cross-party national commission afterwards to determine how to proceed. We would then have had an unassailable understanding of what the population as a whole wished, and a consensus view on how to implement it. Alas partisan politics got in the way, and for this politicians like Boris Johnson must take a large part of the blame.

Fortunately we live in a democracy, and that gives us the right to disagree. It means that if you don't like an outcome you should be allowed to articulate your views and campaign for an alternative without being called names, or without being told to shut up. You might perhaps try remembering that.

Thumbs Up


Edited by clift_d - 14 Jan 20 at 23:06
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gregozedobe View Drop Down
Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jan 20 at 05:51
Ermm   Erm... no.

I have maintained the position that the majority of people who voted supported Brexit (and on on two separate occasions no less).  My view on that is supported by the facts.

Can you please show me where I called you (personally) names or told you to shut up  ?  

I believe in civilised debate, and always make a clear distinction between disagreeing with what a person says (and when it clearly won't have any effect is when I quite rightly characterise it as moaning, whinging etc), and do not attack any person directly.  So I am disagreeing with what you say, not making any direct attacks or telling you to shut up.

I expressed my opinion, which included an observation that complaining about Brexit now is extremely unlikely to change the situation much at all, hence fitting in what I describe as moaning, whinging etc...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 20 at 19:29
Keep paying your taxes peasants...

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gregozedobe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 20 at 10:49
Just another remoaner LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 20 at 11:10
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Just another remoaner LOL


Err... name calling again... ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 20 at 17:30
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Just another remoaner LOL


Regardless of any individual's particular views on EU membership, our society attempts to function using taxation as one of the methods to fund services society deems it needs.

In simplistic terms: A single person's tax cannot build and maintain the entire transport network they may drive on, likewise a single person's tax cannot build and run a hospital so it is there whenever they may need to access it for any specific healthcare service.

It is the pooling of everyone's' taxes that facilitate the building and running of the infrastructure and services we as a society require to live our lives.
Therefore, taxation is your subscription to a civilised society.
Fucking charlatans like Mogg and the like are a real threat to many aspects our society expects to be there when we need them.

You say you live abroad so have no real skin in the game here. You can laugh all you want then from a distance, but the reality is our State (the UK) is being run by parasites for their benefit and to the detriment of the wider population.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jan 20 at 23:49
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Just another remoaner LOL

Sorry, I'll fix my mistake, it won't take a moment:

Just more remoaning ... LOL


There there, does that feel better now ?


As far as the "parasites" go (and isn't that name calling  too ?), unfortunately influential people have always pushed things to go in their favour.  This happens worldwide, and the only chance most people have to change things is to elect honest politicians.  Unfortunately as we all know these people are very few & far between, and even if they start out honest, after a while their principles often seem rather "flexible"  :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 20 at 09:21
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

As far as the "parasites" go (and isn't that name calling  too ?), unfortunately influential people have always pushed things to go in their favour.  This happens worldwide, and the only chance most people have to change things is to elect honest politicians.  Unfortunately as we all know these people are very few & far between, and even if they start out honest, after a while their principles often seem rather "flexible"  :(


I think you have mistaken me for someone else re. name calling.
I'm of a mind that calls it as I see and won't be cowed by feelings of inferiority or subservience to a bunch of self-serving fuckwits.

The good thing is you recognise the common traits and tendencies so regularly found in politicians. Therefore it is important for the electorate to be kept informed of the aforementioned fuckwits' antics so we can have the ability to rein in the worst of their excesses through democratic processes.
For that reason it is odd that you would choose to derogatorily callout folk that bother to highlight the worst of our politicians' behaviours and hypocrisy, unless of course you are quite happy to be ruled over by an evermore unaccountable and authoritarian minded government with all that entails for your rights and freedoms.





Edited by danstervan - 21 Jan 20 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 20 at 09:22
delete post pressed quote instead of edit to address swear filter


Edited by danstervan - 21 Jan 20 at 09:23
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gregozedobe View Drop Down
Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 20 at 11:14
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

I think you have mistaken me for someone else re. name calling. 

Clift_d is the person who has a bit of a thing about calling people names on the BY, so I thought I'd better bring it to your attention before he has a go at you as well.

Mind you, after making wild accusations about what I said I note that despite having posted in this very thread he has refused to answer my quite reasonable question ie:

"Can you please show me where I called you (personally) names or told you to shut up  ?  " 

Of course that may be because I did neither, and he knows it......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 20 at 13:11
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

I think you have mistaken me for someone else re. name calling. 

Clift_d is the person who has a bit of a thing about calling people names on the BY, so I thought I'd better bring it to your attention before he has a go at you as well.

Mind you, after making wild accusations about what I said I note that despite having posted in this very thread he has refused to answer my quite reasonable question ie:

"Can you please show me where I called you (personally) names or told you to shut up  ?  " 

Of course that may be because I did neither, and he knows it......


Hilarious.

You've taken the hump with me flagging up the playground language you're using, i.e. that I'm a moaning, groaning, bleating, whinging remoaner.  You like to dish it out, but you don't seem to be so happy about receiving any criticism.

LMFAO... you won... just get over it.
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gregozedobe View Drop Down
Vanorak
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 20 at 07:12
Hmmm, as I said previously, clift_d told lies about what I said, then refused to own up to it - as expected.

"Can you please show me where I called you (personally) names or told you to shut up  ?  " 

If you can't, then a clear apology would be nice ......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 20 at 09:10
Ermm <sigh>
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 20 at 09:55
So that's now Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland devolved administrations voted to reject the EU (Withdrawal Agreement) Bill.
England doesn't actually have a parliament as it is sits like a cuckoo in the UK Parliament treating it as its own.
Needless to say the UK gets what England wants. Not so great stuff for the UK "Family of Nations" or "Union of equal partners"...

I notice the old "will of the people" soundbite term being banded about again. Head's up, nae twat knew what they were really voting for in an advisory referendum because the campaigns were influenced and interfered with by various breaches of electoral protocol and funding.
That's not moaning, that's merely pointing out the reality, regardless of your views on various political issues.



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