The Brick-yard Homepage Brickwerks
Forum Home Forum Home > The Brickyard > The Brickie's Arms
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - EU...in or out...
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

EU...in or out...

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 111213
Author
Message
danstervan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie


Joined: 19 Jul 11
Location: Caledonia
Status: Offline
Points: 453
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 18 at 21:12
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

Better get the bus back out


Thinking this will need to be the new "Brexit" bus... Coz you'll need to be tannin' a shit load of shrooms to think everything is irie soon. Wink
Fortunately for leave voters psilocybin still grow on these islands so at least you won't have to rely on imported food stuffs from the EU to survive. It's highly unlikely magic mushrooms will have any noticeable affect on brains so impaired they thought living solely under a Conservative government was a good plan. LOL



Back to Top
danstervan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie


Joined: 19 Jul 11
Location: Caledonia
Status: Offline
Points: 453
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 18 at 22:29

Back to Top
nicq View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 13
Location: Surrey
Status: Offline
Points: 109
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 18 at 22:43
So USA and China are now in EU !!!!!
Why is working with England a problem when USA and China isn't
Total bullshit
Check out who makes parts for Airbus.
Back to Top
danstervan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie


Joined: 19 Jul 11
Location: Caledonia
Status: Offline
Points: 453
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jun 18 at 22:57
Does everyone really think this sort of thing is ok? Ermm


Is anyone beginning to finally wake up and see the UK's sham "democracy" is just a front for the establishment to lord over your subservient selves.
Happy to live in a country with the long working hours, shitest pay, worst holidays, high retirement age, high property prices, crapest pension, your free at point of need health service getting trashed and sold off to private companies and individuals similar to those involved in the scam above.

"Aye, everything is just fine and it won't effect me..." isn't really a viable stance to take anymore.


Back to Top
donecan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 10
Location: Bristol/ London
Status: Offline
Points: 543
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jun 18 at 07:52
That makes for some rage inducing reading. It's sad times when I'm no longer surprised by stuff like this anymore though...

It just feels like, as a nation, we've been duped, bullied and confused to a point where we feel there's nothing we can do to help ourselves, whilst through it all, the few get rich off of the back of it. It's a strong political tactic; create confusion with misinformation and reap the rewards. 

I don't know enough about it, but it seems like it started in places like Russia, and is obviously now commonplace in US and UK politics...
Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 18 at 23:07
Originally posted by donecan donecan wrote:

That makes for some rage inducing reading.


Really? The markets are a gamble - you get the benefit of not having to pay the Bookies rake off, but they are a gamble just the same.

Whether we remained in or left Europe some people would have made a mint and others lost their shirts. Nobody is lording it over us on this as any of us with a couple of quid or even far more to spare could have gambled either at the Bookies or on the markets too - it is easy enough to do.

The way Farage talked on the night was pretty much in line with what a lot of people were thinking - I was amazed to wake up and find the vote had gone in favour of leaving. Glad I never put any of my hard earned on a wager as I'd have lost.

As for getting a decent leaving deal I can't see it. You need strong leadership and a good majority in Parliament for that and we have neither, and I can't see it making a blind bit of difference which party is in power as they are all pretty much divided internally.



 

 
'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
danstervan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie


Joined: 19 Jul 11
Location: Caledonia
Status: Offline
Points: 453
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jul 18 at 19:55
Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

Really? The markets are a gamble - you get the benefit of not having to pay the Bookies rake off, but they are a gamble just the same.

Whether we remained in or left Europe some people would have made a mint and others lost their shirts. Nobody is lording it over us on this as any of us with a couple of quid or even far more to spare could have gambled either at the Bookies or on the markets too - it is easy enough to do.

The way Farage talked on the night was pretty much in line with what a lot of people were thinking - I was amazed to wake up and find the vote had gone in favour of leaving. Glad I never put any of my hard earned on a wager as I'd have lost.

As for getting a decent leaving deal I can't see it. You need strong leadership and a good majority in Parliament for that and we have neither, and I can't see it making a blind bit of difference which party is in power as they are all pretty much divided internally.


Mike, that's interesting to see your interpretation on this.
It's not as much of a gamble when these particular individuals and organisations are given prominent platforms so they can influence the markets prior to the final outcome of a vote.
And we're not talking a few quid. We're talking millions of pounds spread bet to cover most eventualities.
The polling companies (YouGov, Ashcroft etc) can release any skewed data they want, to give the impression of a trend. Their media chums promote it along with other influencing "news" to push an agenda.
Very few of them called any of the recent prominent election results correctly, so they are either publishing a load of bollox by design or incompetence.
The only real poll that matters is the feckin vote itself, and if the media put as much effort into truthfully informing the electorate as they do to engineering a result that suits their masters we may not be in the position we find ourselves in.

Even headlines about businesses possibly leaving due to questions over what if any deal the EU allows Westminster to have affects share price and trading. It's all speculation, but those that are given the platform to speculate and in turn create influence are the same ones who are playing the markets.

The impact assessment reports carried out after the EU vote show negative effects across a considerable range of areas that will impact on a lot of folks' lives. People actually voted to be worse off not just financially but in other ways too.
Why were these reports not produced and published to inform the electorate prior to the vote so they could make a more informed decision.

You are quite literally being lorded over by an archaic system that supports the elites.


You're on the money with regard to all the main UK parties being divided and ineffective. This happens when their sole aim has been the retention of power at all costs and they've utilised and exhausted all the divisive techniques in the handbook to keep control. They finally reap what they sow.
There comes a time when it's plainly obvious that something is broken beyond viable repair. The facade of democracy has cracked and people are finally beginning to see it for what it was all along.

The next couple of weeks will certainly be interesting to watch as things come to a head on various fronts.



Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 18 at 23:06
You certainly ain't wrong there mate - they are dropping out of the cabinet like flies even as we speak.

It's all going to go tits up big time. Worry not Jezza's standing by to take control of the reins.

What I don't get Dan is why you go on about our lack of democracy, but you are happy with the non elected Commissioners of the EU making the laws?

If the house of Lords made the laws in this country with the elected MPs just acting as the checks and balances everyone would be up in arms, and quite right too, but that is exactly how it is in Europe.

Yes we can elect and get rid of our MEPs, but they aren't the lawmakers. The Commisioners aren't accountable to the likes of you and me, or pretty much anyone else come to think of it.

They are the ones who are currently, and may even continue to lord it over us.

 






'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
clift_d View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 02 Dec 12
Location: Hackney innit
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 18 at 05:20
It's amazing that people are still peddling the same EU = tyranny nonsense.

EU Commissioners are the same as the UK Civil Service, who are also not democratically elected. They consult with organisations, undertake the various assessments, and then draft laws which are put before the EU Parliament (democratically elected MEPs) and EU Council (representatives of democratically elected national governments). If both these democratically elected bodies don't approve the draft laws then they don't get on the statute book.

No Henry VIII powers here.
1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro
Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 18 at 09:37
From the European Union's own website here:

http://https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission_en

Overview

  • Role: Promotes the general interest of the EU by proposing and enforcing legislation as well as by implementing policies and the EU budget
  • Members: A team or 'College' of Commissioners, 1 from each EU country
  • President: Jean-Claude Juncker
  • Year established: 1958
  • Location: Brussels (Belgium)
  • Website: European Commission

The European Commission is the EU's politically independent executive arm. It is alone responsible for drawing up proposals for new European legislation, and it implements the decisions of the European Parliament and the Council of the EU.

What does the Commission do?

Proposes new laws

The Commission is the sole EU institution tabling laws for adoption by the Parliament and the Council that:

  • protect the interests of the EU and its citizens on issues that can't be dealt with effectively at national level;
  • get technical details right by consulting experts and the public.


I've left their highlights exactly as they wrote them, but I'd put this bit in bold meself:

It is alone responsible for drawing up proposals for new European legislation, and it implements the decisions of the European Parliament and the Council of the EU.


These Commissioners do a bit more than our own Civil service. Smile


'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
clift_d View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 02 Dec 12
Location: Hackney innit
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 18 at 11:02
Okay. So maybe the UK Civil Service need to step up their game.

The point I was making, and the thing that you have conspicuously avoided responding to in your post, is the fact that no EU legislation becomes law without being passed by both the democratically elected EU Parliament and the democratically elected EU Council. This single fact totally undercuts your argument that the EU is not a democratic body, with laws that are made and imposed by unelected apparatchiks.
1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro
Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 18 at 13:19
If you read what I wrote in the previous post I said exactly that - it would be like swapping the Lords and Parliament over, so that the Lords made the law and Parliament acted as the checks and balances.

I'm not talking tyrany, just democracy - to be able to vote out the people who make the laws, not the ones who okay them.

In defence of the EU, the Commissioners can only stay in place for 5 years, unlike our Civil Service, who have as good as a job for life as you can get these days. 
'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
danstervan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie


Joined: 19 Jul 11
Location: Caledonia
Status: Offline
Points: 453
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 18 at 12:01
Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

You certainly ain't wrong there mate - they are dropping out of the cabinet like flies even as we speak.

It's all going to go tits up big time. Worry not Jezza's standing by to take control of the reins.

What I don't get Dan is why you go on about our lack of democracy, but you are happy with the non elected Commissioners of the EU making the laws?

If the house of Lords made the laws in this country with the elected MPs just acting as the checks and balances everyone would be up in arms, and quite right too, but that is exactly how it is in Europe.

Yes we can elect and get rid of our MEPs, but they aren't the lawmakers. The Commisioners aren't accountable to the likes of you and me, or pretty much anyone else come to think of it.

They are the ones who are currently, and may even continue to lord it over us.


This was always going to come to a head and now as expected to anyone with half an eye on things we see the result.

Jezza is still for a hard Brexit... in a Labour party that is also seriously divided. Where is the real opposition.

I attended a talk given by a Labour MEP a while back. They took questions at the end and it was put to them that a lot of the rise of Corbyn and his support came from younger folks that predominantly voted to remain in the EU, and how does that square with his leave position.
Clearly they were uncomfortable having to try to justify and deal with answering that. That's basically because they look at what constituencies voted Labour and how they voted in the EU ref and are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They've boxed themselves in. Same as the Conservatives have. Both totally divided and compromised in their ability to achieve anything.
Scotland booted Labour out when it became clear what they were up to.

clift_d has dealt with the un-elected Commissioner aspect. You highlighted one line but must have missed:

Members: A team or 'College' of Commissioners, 1 from each EU country

Aside from them using incorrect terminology (it should read "1 from each EU state" as the UK is not a country but a union of two kingdoms...) what is your issue in aligning with the relatively high standards of regulation and uniformity of the EU single market?
For example; do you think in any future trade deals it will be ok to have our meat imported from Oz and the USA from animals treated with growth hormone and dubious antibiotic practices. Ignoring the animal welfare aspects, how can it still be financially viable and environmentally sensible to ship produce which requires refrigeration from so far away when it can be farmed locally.
The UK is a low wage economy so folks are far more likely to buy the cheaper lower quality stuff and this could potentially put our own farmers out of business because they cannot compete price wise with the lower quality imported stuff.
Around here the weak pound and anti-immigrant agenda has already created an issue with produce failing to be be processed due to lack of workforce.

Previously in this thread I've stated plenty of reasons why democracy is lacking. Differing voting systems used in the two Kingdoms, crap mainstream media, electoral fraud on a grand scale with no effective organisations to stop it or punish those responsible. Scotland and Northern Ireland are being taken out of the EU against their wishes.

I have no beef with English folks, but they need to understand the UK political setup is dominated by England and its inability to let others decide their own paths is clear. England is England, it is not the entire UK or Britain.
The UK is the last vestiges of their empire which most countries have moved on from once they realised they were just being shafted. You don't see any other nation screaming to join a union with England.
England has through all sorts of manipulation effectively voted for its own independence, so why can't it just accept that instead of dragging others into that isolationist mindset as a wee insignificant island off the coast of Europe.
Back to Top
donecan View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 10
Location: Bristol/ London
Status: Offline
Points: 543
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 18 at 17:40
I seem to agree completely with everything you're saying...again.

One day, if I ever happen to bump into you, I'll buy you a pint.
Back to Top
Buttercup View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 03 Jun 07
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 138
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buttercup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 18 at 08:23
Originally posted by donecan donecan wrote:

I seem to agree completely with everything you're saying...again.

One day, if I ever happen to bump into you, I'll buy you a pint.

Absolutely. Clap
Another +1 on that.
 
I rarely comment on these sort of posts, mostly because my DoKa and my bikes are my sanctuary from 'normal' life but also because I usually end up arguing with some complete tool... 

I'm a simple guy, I just want the whole process to be over and wish I could bang the heads together of every MP and tell them to stop being dicks and do the best for the country. I don't care about who voted in and who voted out any more, I just want it sorted so companies (like the one that employs me) can try and sort their shit out too.

I'll go back to being quiet in a corner again now. Thumbs Up
'89 LHD DoKa - Buttercup 2
Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 18 at 11:08
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:


clift_d has dealt with the un-elected Commissioner aspect. You highlighted one line but must have missed:

Members: A team or 'College' of Commissioners, 1 from each EU country




Not for me he hasn’t. Smile

They are a meritocracy and as you say the Member States appoint one each so they aren’t even a proportional representation of the people - Luxembourg, population around half a million has one, and the UK, population around 65 million also has just the one.

No person from an ethnic minority has ever been appointed to date, and there are only 8 women currently serving as Commissioners out of a total of 28 - not so much an Old Boys’ club but more of a white Old Boys’ club.

Still good money if you can get it; around 22,000 Euros (a month of course) plus a very generous benefits package as befits riding first class on the gravy train.

As for standards and animal husbandry, we are well above the EU in some sectors of the market – pig farming for example, and I’d like to see that improved when we leave.

The problem with leaving the EU is that we joined as the UK, so the only way to leave is as the UK. Scotland, Northern Ireland and England didn’t individually join, so you can’t go blaming a section of the population because they are English - many English folks voted to remain and likewise Scots voted to go.

Your fellow Countrymen and Women also voted to remain as part of the UK  - would have been interesting to see what would have happened if you had gained Independence and wanted to remain in the EU. That would have put the cat amongst the pigeons; especially as everyone was saying at the time the only way to stay in the EU was to stay in the UK.  They couldn’t have been more wrong!

If we ever meet up I'd also buy you a pint or two - I'm sure we would find plenty to talk about. Big smile

'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
clift_d View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 02 Dec 12
Location: Hackney innit
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 18 at 12:19
Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:


clift_d has dealt with the un-elected Commissioner aspect. You highlighted one line but must have missed:

Members: A team or 'College' of Commissioners, 1 from each EU country
Not for me he hasn’t. Smile

They are a meritocracy and as you say the Member States appoint one each so they aren’t even a proportional representation of the people - Luxembourg, population around half a million has one, and the UK, population around 65 million also has just the one.

I corrected your original fallacy, which was that it is unelected officials who make EU laws. You still haven't disputed what I said in relation to that, so that one must be dealt with.

Originally posted by Mike Noc Mike Noc wrote:

Yes we can elect and get rid of our MEPs, but they aren't the lawmakers. The Commisioners aren't accountable to the likes of you and me, or pretty much anyone else come to think of it.
They are the ones who are currently, and may even continue to lord it over us.

If you now want to start a discussion about the white old boys club that almost exclusively comprised the upper echelons of the Leave supporting campaign (Farage, Johnson, Dominic Cummings, Aaron Banks, the Barclay Brothers, Lord Rothermere, John Bamford, James Dyson, et all) then we can do that, but I don't recall that this was a concern that you articulated originally. Smile


1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro
Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Jul 18 at 20:51
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:


I corrected your original fallacy, which was that it is unelected officials who make EU laws. You still haven't disputed what I said in relation to that, so that one must be dealt with.

Strange I thought I did, but this is what the Commission themselves say, as I mentioned earlier:


Quote

What does the Commission do?

Proposes new laws

The Commission is the sole EU institution tabling laws for adoption by the Parliament and the Council...


Now not all the laws they come up with are adopted of course because the MEPs have to vote them through, but the Commissioners are the sole makers of any EU law - the MEPs can ask them to look at specific issues, but any laws that are adopted will have been made by them - the elected MEPs can't propose laws themselves.

Would you be happy if that was the way it was in the UK? I wouldn't.

You are of course spot on that my main concern is the lack of democracy with the Commissioners, but the more you look into it the worse it gets.




Edited by Mike Noc - 15 Jul 18 at 20:57
'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
clift_d View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 02 Dec 12
Location: Hackney innit
Status: Offline
Points: 221
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 18 at 02:29
The EU Commissioners only draft the laws, the MEPs and EU Council decide whether they need amending, or are to be rejected or passed. I fail to see where you think there is a lack of democracy in the process. Unless you feel it would be better if chancers like Farage and Hannen were tasked with drafting well thought out legislation?
1988 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker syncro
Back to Top
Mike Noc View Drop Down
Yardie
Yardie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Aug 11
Location: Hampshire
Status: Offline
Points: 375
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike Noc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jul 18 at 18:29
The lack of democracy is the Commissioners deciding on which laws to draft in the first place. Far more democratic to see prospective candidates or political parties lay their stalls out and then you can decide what they are offering and vote accordingly, and the next time around depending on whether they deliver or not.

The problem with politics is that often there is no 'best' path to follow. Take the nationalisation of the railways as an example. Of the two main political parties here one thinks it is best to nationalise them, and the other thinks exactly the opposite.

So we have a choice, along with looking at all the other things the parties stand for, and we vote on what we each think is best.

If it was left to a College of Commissioners then would we even get the choice? I think not - they would probably have saved us the bother of thinking about it and gone down the road, or even rails, they thought best.

If you are happy with the Commissioners, would you think it a good idea to adopt a similar system here and have the Lords draft the laws and let Parliament decide on whether they need amending, or are to be rejected or passed? 

 



Edited by Mike Noc - 16 Jul 18 at 18:42
'The Big Slow' LT35 1989 normally aspirated Diesel Horsebox - Gone but not forgotten.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 111213
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.

The WebThis site