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EU...in or out...

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gregozedobe View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 20 at 11:33
Originally posted by danstervan danstervan wrote:

That's not moaning, that's merely pointing out the reality, regardless of your views on various political issues.

But the question is, how will all of that make any practical difference to what Boris is going to do ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 20 at 09:35
Originally posted by gregozedobe gregozedobe wrote:

But the question is, how will all of that make any practical difference to what Boris is going to do ?


There are various ways these factors may influence or effect the decisions he may have to take, and we will have to observe how these matters progress, but everyday there are events that steer the trajectory we are on.

Not sure if you have read through every page of the thread but there has been some good discussion highlighting both the legal, political, and constitutional aspects relating to the UK State.

EG. The Queen is Queen of England and she is also Queen of Scots.
Notice I didn't write Scotland, as she is only the Scots' monarch with the consent of the Scottish people. If she does not uphold or represent the wishes of the Scots then we can choose another monarch that better serves us.
She now finds herself in an awkward spot due to the differing electoral mandates generated in the two Kingdoms that form the UK State.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jan 20 at 18:09

Just to add a bit of extra context to the above, the net total financial contribution that the UK made to the EU over the 47 years that we were members, taking account of the UK's rebate and adjusted for inflation, was...

£227 billion

So it is entirely possible that, by the middle of next year, the UK economy will have shrunk in value by more in four years than we ever paid to the EU in 47 years.

Wacko


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 02:23
Keep it up clift_d, maybe someday you will convince a few others to join your cause .... ;)

In the meantime, Boris is getting on with Brexit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 12:18
Unfortunately, we have gone past the point of trying to convince people of the harm that Brexit will do to the UK. Now we have formally left the EU, we will all get to experience the consequences of this grand ‘experiment’ up close.

I’m sure the prospects look rosey from where you’re sat halfway around the world, but I’ve seen enough close-up of how Johnson acted as London mayor to know that he doesn’t have the integrity, the vision, or the attention to detail, to get the best for the UK from this process.  

With negotiations not expected to start until 3rd March, the UK has only five months until the cut-off on 1st July for requesting an extension to the transition period from the EU, which of course Johnson won’t do, and only around nine months in total to sort out a deal so that it can be ratified by the EU before the current transition period ends on 31st December. I have yet to hear of anybody, with a background in trade negotiations, saying that it is at all realistic to think that a meaningful and comprehensive trade deal can be agreed in anything near that period. This means, come the 31st of December, that the UK will lose all its current trade agreements, with the entire world, with little or no prospect of anything of consequence to replace them, and that we will effectively have imposed economic sanctions on ourselves.


Edited by clift_d - 01 Feb 20 at 13:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 14:17
please don't invite me to any party that you may have. Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 16:24
It’s unlikely to happen...


I suspect you’re the kind of person who’d turn up without bringing anything on the basis that everybody should be happy that you even turned up, then spend your entire time complaining that the food and music aren’t as good as they used to be at parties in the ‘good old days’, before berating the other guests for not agreeing with you, and then leaving in a huff saying ‘that you never wanted to come in the first place’.


Just kidding... really...



Edited by clift_d - 01 Feb 20 at 16:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 17:49
I don't think I have ever met somebody with such a chip on his solder.
Re read your post and take out all the suppositions and it amounts to sweat f a. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 18:02
It really pains me to have to explain it... but I was using a sarcastic, tongue in cheek, and entirely unreasonable portrayal of a fictionalised imagination of your behaviour at an non-existent party in order to satirise the UK’s attitude to the EU.

<sigh>


Edited by clift_d - 01 Feb 20 at 18:12
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 18:24
Thrn you should think harder about the way you word your posts, for the past three years everyone who voted to leave the EU has been called racist, stupid, ill informed and geriatric. Most are normal inelegant people who just don't have the same views as you. Think before you post a lot of people are getting fed up with being tarred with that brush. After all it is possible that it's you who are miss guided. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 19:22
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

Thrn you should think harder about the way you word your posts, for the past three years everyone who voted to leave the EU has been called racist, stupid, ill informed and geriatric. Most are normal inelegant people who just don't have the same views as you. Think before you post a lot of people are getting fed up with being tarred with that brush. After all it is possible that it's you who are miss guided. 

That suggests you haven’t been reading my posts. I’ve never called anyone stupid or geriatric. I may have implied that people are ill-informed but only by highlighting the lies that voters have been told both before and after the referendum, by politicians and media, and of what I’ve posted in that respect nothing has been shown to be incorrect. And I’ve never called anyone racist - even the guy who came on the thread spouting white replacement conspiracy theories.

I’m sure you’re a very nice chap in real life but you choose to engage in this discussion, and so you need to be prepared to have your views challenged. In the end your side won so if it all turns out great then fair play to you - I concede the error of my ways, and I’m sure you’ll want to take the credit. But everything currently points to it turning into a total s**t show, and that is something that we will all bear the consequences of, and I’m sure nobody will want to take responsibility for.

Have a good evening folks. 


Edited by clift_d - 01 Feb 20 at 19:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 20 at 19:48
you do not seem capable of reading. I never said that you said I said we have been branded as. We have received all sort of crap against us but history shows that it's not always the easy route that is the best route. Often countries that are forced to make decisions that are hard become great ie Japan after ww2. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 20 at 14:46
Did you genuinely just compare post Brexit UK to Japan recovering from 2 nuclear bombs?

I mean Brexit is a f*cking disaster, but not quite nuclear fallout bad Big smile






...yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 20 at 17:07

I couldn’t quite believe that either.


I think it’s really interesting how Leavers portray the whole situation as being about grievance and persecution of their ‘side’ even though they’ve got everything they wanted. They won the referendum, we’ve left the EU, and now we’re heading for a ‘No Deal’ situation - what used to be called a ‘clean break’ but is now being spun as the ‘Australian’ model. There have been zero concessions made by them to anyone who wanted to maintain close ties with Europe.


And yet you can already see the PM setting up the EU as the bogey man, stopping him delivering the nirvana that he ‘promised’ in 2016 or at the election, in the impossible red lines he is suggesting for the negotiations. 


Indeed we live in interesting times ...




Edited by clift_d - 04 Feb 20 at 17:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 20 at 19:15
Originally posted by donecan donecan wrote:

Did you genuinely just compare post Brexit UK to Japan recovering from 2 nuclear bombs?

I mean Brexit is a f*cking disaster, but not quite nuclear fallout bad Big smile
It wasn't a comparison. 
Japan changed its whole ethos its governmental system and became a world leader in a very short time. 
It might have been a disaster that caused it but an island that had a very poor international reputation became a world international trading economy. 






...yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 20 at 20:52
 The economic resurgence of both Germany and Japan were kickstarted by the post war occupations of both those countries, and the boost in economic activity that came from their key roles in the Cold War. Japan was occupied for seven years during reconstruction, with some parts occupied until the 1970s, and it had to cede overseas territories to China, Russia and others. It was forced to dismantle its armed forces and still largely relies on the US for defence - vassal state anyone?


Much as it’s tempting to look to economic stories like this, or Singapore, as examples there really is no parallel with the self imposed journey that the UK is embarking on. The conditions that allowed the Japanese economy to flourish post war are unlikely to be replicated in the current highly regulated global economy. 



Edited by clift_d - 04 Feb 20 at 20:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 20 at 21:27
you are so half empty it's unbelievable.
Your saying a suppressed country that is forced to given economic constraints and still has an economy better than most of the Western world is not an incredible achievement.
The point I was trying to get over was that it is possible to change your countries economic direction if you so wish. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Feb 20 at 22:02
  Irrespective of your faith in PM Johnson’s ability to turn the UK economy into a modern success, all those goods and services you will be producing still need to be exported to customers. Without  any trade deals, or an agreed WTO tariff schedule, our exporters won’t be able to compete properly against other countries. 


The last country to agree a whole new WTO schedule was Russia, after the collapse of the USSR, and that took 18 years. This is the Australian trade model.


The alternative is the Canada model, where we negotiate a similar deal to the CETA deal they have with the EU. That took place relatively quickly - only 8 years from start to ratification, and this only deals with goods not services, and so doesn’t cover the more than 40% of our exports to the EU that services represent.


It’s not negativity it’s realism, and we’ve been saying it for three years.


The only chance we had of a quick deal, which would have meant frictionless trade at the earliest opportunity, would have been regulatory alignment - the so called ‘level playing field’ that the PM agreed with the EU in his political declaration. His government however already reneged on this commitment and pivoted 180° to a position of regulatory divergence. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 08:41
Just empty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Feb 20 at 10:43
Go on then... enlighten me.

What things will I be able to do that I couldn't do before? How will me or my kids be better off? How will the country be better off?

Give me some reasons to be cheerful about Brexit.


Edited by clift_d - 05 Feb 20 at 11:07
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