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EU...in or out...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 19 at 21:32
Dont worry with the vote in the Netherlands this week its the thin end of the wedge for the EU
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 19 at 21:33
Originally posted by DUCASSOS DUCASSOS wrote:

read it mate, gov,eu.      Kalergi plan. research. don't want too get in discussion with ignoramous.

I had a feeling that's where this might be going.

I'm not an ignoramus chum, I just don't have much truck with 'white genocide conspiracy theory':


If you're worried about immigration then just come out and say it, but don't wrap it up in some pseudo conspiracy nonsense about 'USSEU'.

P.S. - The UK has overwhelmingly benefited from immigration.


Edited by clift_d - 23 Mar 19 at 21:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DUCASSOS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 19 at 21:56
best just believe what you want. 
Anyhow ,not a good subject to be on a motor forum , so I'll leave it there.
ps . I am worried about immigration. 
and I am the son of an immigrant. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 19 at 22:40
I'm not talking about beliefs - you might be, but I'm talking about facts. There is a difference.

FYI the 'Kalergi plan' is not a thing except in conspiracy theories.

Sure Coudenhove-Kalergi was a prolific writer who was influential in the Pan-European Union between the wars, but he was only one of many at the time who were proposing European unity following the debacle of the Great War, and he was also only a part of a much longer continuum of this idea going back at least as far as 1453 when a union of European states was proposed as a balwark against the Turks.

You can perhaps point to Churchill's speech in Zurich on 19th September 1946 as being as influential, if not more so, than anything Kalergi ever wrote,in leading the push towards an eventual Council of Europe, but that wouldn't fit the 'USSEU' narrative quite so well would it?

P.S. This part of the forum is where we get to talk cobblers if we so desire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote danstervan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 19:56
Originally posted by DUCASSOS DUCASSOS wrote:

best just believe what you want. 
Anyhow ,not a good subject to be on a motor forum , so I'll leave it there.
ps . I am worried about immigration. 
and I am the son of an immigrant. 


It's actually been a very good thread on this motor forum. Folk have discussed a number of subjects that have and continue to come into play as events unfold.
Have you actually read the thread from the beginning? If you had you might have chosen to use the correct terminology instead of "British government". There is no British government. Westminster is the government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and all the nuanced constitutional and political intricacies that includes.
You say you voted leave, that's fine and well but just what sort of "leave" did you want as it wasn't specified?
Are you aware that the UK only produces about 50% of the food it consumes. Approximately 30% of the shortfall comes in from elsewhere in the EU, and therefore adheres to the high standards of quality and regulation we currently have being a member of the single market.
Freedom of movement of goods, services, capital, and people are what we currently have as an EU member. If the UK leaves the EU and strikes deals with other states or trading blocks, the free movement of people from those entities would most likely be incorporated into any deal reached.
Would you be more concerned about immigrants from outwith Europe rather than our near European neighbours?
Do you have any concerns about emigration?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buttercup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 20:13
My only concern about emigration is that my wife won't let us.
I want to take the kids and settle in either Switzerland or Canada, but she won't have a bit of it.
Slowly she's watching all this garbage unfold and is softening to the idea but I imagine the house will be valueless by the time she agrees.
Scotland might still be an option later on.

Whether anyone voted leave or remain, if they don't think that the current state of affairs will destroy the UK then they're truly deluded.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 20:15
We were told we would leave not partially leave. I don't think anybody except polatitions had any other idea except leaving without a deal. 
As for food outside the EU, I went to Sainsbury yesterday there were Runner beans sweat potatoes chillies fresh greens wine  and many more none of which came from the EU and none of which had a food standard on. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 20:24
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

We were told we would leave not partially leave. I don't think anybody except polatitions had any other idea except leaving without a deal. 
As for food outside the EU, I went to Sainsbury yesterday there were Runner beans sweat potatoes chillies fresh greens wine  and many more none of which came from the EU and none of which had a food standard on. 
I apologise I am a vegetarian so I spent more time in the vegy area 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 21:02
The EU has a large team that goes and inspects and audits the food standards and regulations in any country that wishes to sell into the EU. They also undertake inspections of individual producers to check that the food safety inspections in that country are being followed properly, which is how the quality standards of any non-EU food you see in your supermarket will have been ensured.

Leaving the EU has two effects in this respect:

- Firstly, we would no longer have such inspection procedures in place, as we would now be outside the EU, and so there would be no way for us to ensure the quality of food coming in to the UK. The solution to this problem that is put forward by people like Rees-Mogg is that we should instead rely on the national food standards of these external producers without needing to undertake our own inspections, even where our current standards are higher. That of course means we have open the door to the sort of pesticides that are allowed in the US but not in the EU for example, and that we would have no means of recourse if there was a failure in the hygiene standards of these external countries - here I'm thinking about the deaths in the US from salad infected with salmonella. 

- Secondly, our food producers would now need to be inspected and certified before they can sell into the EU, and the conservative estimates that I've seen suggest that this process will take a minimum of six months. That's six months for agricultural producers in this country without access to their largest external market, and that's on top of all the problems they will face with having tariffs added to their produce. How many UK producers do you think have the resources to survive such constraints on their business?



Edited by clift_d - 24 Mar 19 at 21:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 21:23
I apritiate what you are saying but who in the EU is inspecting sweat potatoes from Israel and cherry's from South America and rice from Pakistan. Or are they self certified by saying that they apply to the standards. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 21:46
For want of a better comparison, it's similar to the way examining boards ensure parity between grading at schools. They are effectively self-certified at source but there are random checks and audits to ensure that the standards achieved are justified.

The EU have a team of inspectors that conduct inspections / audit checks in countries that wish to import to the EU to ensure EU standards are being adhered to, but the main day-to-day inspection work is done by the country's own regulatory authorities. Obviously a failure of inspection in the source country would risk products from that country being blocked from entering the EU.


Edited by clift_d - 24 Mar 19 at 21:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 21:54
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

For want of a better comparison, it's similar to the way examining boards ensure parity between grading at schools. They are effectively self-certified at source but there are random checks and audits to ensure that the standards achieved are justified.

The EU have a team of inspectors that conduct inspections / audit checks in countries that wish to import to the EU to ensure EU standards are being adhered to, but the main day-to-day inspection work is done by the country's own regulatory authorities. Obviously a failure of inspection in the source country would risk products from that country being blocked from entering the EU.
So what you are saying we could carry on with the same system or am I missing something. As it is we get horse berger from France and the amount of poor meat in frozen food from the EU means that we wold be better of monitoring food from the EU. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 22:07
If we leave the EU then we will be outside the existing system, with nothing to replace it.

1. We would no longer have a way of checking the safety of food coming from outside the EU - it's not like these goods are going to be tested / inspected when they land at Dover / Heathrow / wherever.

2, Our producers would need to jump through additional regulatory hoops to sell to their biggest overseas customers in the EU.

For vegetarians I would imagine that there would be concerns about possible GM produce, pesticide residues, or possible food infestation, of imported goods, none of which we will have any procedures in place to check or inspect.


Edited by clift_d - 24 Mar 19 at 22:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 22:14
DEFRA
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 22:18
To wright a set of standards to start with.
In Windows I belive its called copy and paste. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 22:46
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

DEFRA

Except it's been known for some time that DEFRA are not going to be ready for many of the roles they would be taking on (under the minister 'in charge' and Vote Leave figurehead Michael Gove). I think we would probably be right to expect a lot of corners to be cut in the initial period following Brexit to prevent the politically awkward sight of empty shelves in supermarkets.

With regard to imports from third countries it appears to the same self-certification model as currently in place but WITHOUT the audit function, i.e. they mark their own homework but nobody checks they are doing it as required except at the border arriving in the UK - see above re. corner cutting.


Edited by clift_d - 24 Mar 19 at 22:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote clift_d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 19 at 22:47
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

To wright a set of standards to start with.
In Windows I belive its called copy and paste. 

You can write whatever standards you like but how do you make sure people are sticking to them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 09:11
Originally posted by clift_d clift_d wrote:

Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

To wright a set of standards to start with.
In Windows I belive its called copy and paste. 

You can write whatever standards you like but how do you make sure people are sticking to them?
This is silly. Why do we have governments and 2 years to sort these things out 
Instead of sitting on their arses arguing with each other they should have been doing this..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donecan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 10:08
Originally posted by nicq nicq wrote:

This is silly. Why do we have governments and 2 years to sort these things out 
Instead of sitting on their arses arguing with each other they should have been doing this..

Remain or Leave this is a fair(ish) comment.

The simple answer seems to be that party politics and politicians looking out for themselves has gotten in the way.

However, it's an absolute legal minefield. Even if they had spent the last 2 years, and even more tax payers money attempting to sort it out, it still wouldn't be ready. The amount of laws and regulations the government need to draw up due to leaving the EU is astronomical.

Unfortunately this was all made clear before the referendum, and since, but "leave means leave".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 19 at 10:14
Stop making excesses for the total inability of our goverment and all the civil servents to do the job they are paid to do. 
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