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Dual Mass Flywheel uncovered

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smidsy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote smidsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dual Mass Flywheel uncovered
    Posted: 22 Aug 09 at 20:24
after the recent demise of my flywheel i asked the garage who changed it to keep hold of the old one so i could have a play and try to understand why they're so weak.
 
it may be worth looking at these two youtube clips for reference.
 
 
 
the only way to get to the internals was with the help of my trusty angle grinder and i found it like this.
 
the left side is where the spring finally broke through and spat bits around the bell housing.
note the state of the grease encasing the springs.
a serious amount of degreasing and diesel baths and it came up like this.
 
now, i went all C.S.I. and matched up the breaks in the springs. the springs on the right are complete but notice how they are too short to be of any use in damping the engine. basically the two parts of the flywheel were free to move back and forth with no damping action.
 
this next photo shows why i descibe them as shattered rather than broken.
 
 
note the amount of wear on the flywheel from the springs. these internals are open to contaminants like clutch dust and metal off  the flywheel face which turns the grease into cutting paste, which then gets more efficient the more it wears the metal off the flywheel.
note the left hand side where it finally wore through. thats 4.5. mm of good steel against a blunt rounded spring.
 
so points for discussion, this flywheel was 200 mile short of 80000 miles old.
 
1. when did it fail to be an effective damping force on the engine?
 
2. when did the springs shatter and begin digging for freedom?
 
3. why VW, why put such a piece of shit on a commecial engine?
 
4. will VW ever get their reputation back for building reliable motors?
 
5. will you sleep tonight when you think about your own DMF? (sorryWink)
 
my best guesses
 
1. on about 30000 miles
2. about 10000 miles after that
3. it looked good when a high flying uni kid with no experience or understanding of automotive history showed us his computer model.
4. not untill all vehicles from this decade are scrapped
5. yeah sorry.
 
smidsy.
 
p.s. my new flywheel was made by Sachs, so i hope it's more like the second you tube film. it seems a lot better design than the original LUK one.
 
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roadmark69 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roadmark69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 09 at 21:25
I think VW should look at this.I am not a big fan of the DMF  but the sachs one seems a far better design.Whats the price difference?
Mark Coates - Purveyor of mats for T3, T4 and T5 - E-mail - 07917542685
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Albal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 09 at 12:29
When the fly wheel is on the way out and the mechanic describes to you the knocking noise in the bell housing - what is causing that noise? The flywheel being off balance?
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smidsy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smidsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 09 at 18:48
on the invoice the garage charged me, the cost of the DMF & clutch kit was 438.45, i think thats pretty much in line with the OE item from LUK.
i only know it's a sachs because they put the old one in the box that the new one was supplied in.
 
no idea if it's the design on the youtube vid and hopefully will never find out.
 
Albai, if he's describing a knocking then it's probably that the springs have worn down or broken and the two parts of the flywheel are moving freely back and forth with no damping of the forces.
 
if he's describing a scratching noise like pebbles in a bag made of sand paper then it hasn't got long. get it done now.
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Albal View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 09 at 20:35
It was done. The van went in for a simple MOT and came out with a new fly wheel!!!

mine is the 104 04 plate T5.

I asked to listen to the noise but my un-trained ear couldn't determine anything specific. He said it was a knocking. The van was at about 95,000 miles.

Prior to this at about 80,000 miles 5th gear stripped when cruising on the motorway causing loss of drive. The mechanic mentioned nothing of the knocking when I had to have a new gear box.

VW were very unhelpful and unwilling to do anything a long the lines of a goodwill gesture with the box. We had several engineers look at the photos (because they would not release to us the old gear box) and they all unanimously agreed it was a catastrophic failure of the metal not something that had been breaking over time. Highly unacceptable. However, being forced into a corner (somewhere near £4000), I had to get a new box. It was that or scrap the van! So frustrating.

In comparison my old mans Mk 4 Golf TDI has done in excess of 270,000 miles on original fly wheel, clutch and gearbox.

Extra weight of the van causing these failures?
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smidsy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smidsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 09 at 23:01
blimey Albal thats a scary price.
 
reminds me when i phoned the local van cetre for advise on tyres when i got my 18" wheels, they said not to fit them on an 85ps as it could strip the gear box.  i then enquired if in fact the gear boxes were made of cheese.
they hung up.Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Loon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 09 at 03:12
Gearboxes seem to be a hit or a miss. I've got one with 200k+ on it and it's fine, except it is in my shed with a worn output shaft. Next month when I come to change said shaft, along with a new clutch and DMF it will be going back in, as the replacement box I bought with 34k on was half shagged. The syncro on 1st and 4th is fucked. Some ye win............
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmautosport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 09:20
Hi Smidsy (and others as this is my first post!)
 
Very interesting read, i have just brought a 54 plate 174 done 95k and i think the DMF has blown apart, only got it on the 29th of august and the next day it went on me, to say i was gutted was an understatement! I was just pulling in 4th geart and all of a sudden it went (like the sound of something jolting) and the engine just reved up then went to idle while free wheeled to a stop. We are now pretty sure that it is the DMF as the stater motor just spins the fly wheel and also had the starter out and fly wheel it free, i and am hoping it has not taken anything else out.
 
My question is that you say the sachs one is better than the original LUK one but how do you know this? I am at the point of buying a new one and dont know what will be best to go for.
 
Any input would be great, also where did you get yours done and what was the total bill for the labour on it so i know what i should be paying.
 
Regards
 
Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Syncost Alot. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 09:38
[QUOTE=roadmark69]I think VW should look at this.[QUOTE]
 
They have!
It took many years of development & research to design a flywheel that will break-down at 90,000 miles....or Just out of warranty! And equal a labour intensive dealer repair! Didn't they do well! Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mcguyver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 20:23
Hello bm. Bad luck with the dmf, at least you've not got the uncertainty of when it'll break.
 
I was talking to the parts man at a VW van centre the other day and the subject of dmfs came up. He said that they now supply Sachs as oem parts, the only differences between buying from VW or a motor factor are that VW charge £500 instead of £300, but, give a two year warranty as opposed to one year from Sachs.
 
I don't know about labour costs. Try a forum search ^.
 
mac
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smidsy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 20:41
hello and welcome bmautosport
 
that sounds a very nasty and expensive repair if the flywheel is just spinning all on its own. it should be attactched to the crank even when failed.
 
in regards to the LUK/sachs difference, i simply do not know if the design shown in the youtube film is the one used in replacement DMF's for the T5. i just hope so as it seems a better design.
 
i had no choice in what was fitted and only came across the sachs film after the event but am of the opinion that anything must be better than what was was originally fitted.
 
can i recommend that you start a new thread with your van problems as you might find a lot of usefull and helpfull advise comes you way in respect of the fact you've just had the van and it broke the very next day. you may not need to worry about the cost of repair after all.
 
and get the beers in.
 
smidsy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roadmark69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 09 at 20:58

My first DMF went at 27000 miles and the van was not 2 years old.It is not the first to go at this sort of mileage.

I have also spoken to other owners who have said theirs have gone  when reversing.Not sure if there is a pattern to it but I know of 4.
Mark Coates - Purveyor of mats for T3, T4 and T5 - E-mail - 07917542685
http://www.megavanmats.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bmautosport Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 09 at 07:33
Originally posted by smidsy smidsy wrote:

hello and welcome bmautosport
 
that sounds a very nasty and expensive repair if the flywheel is just spinning all on its own. it should be attactched to the crank even when failed.
 
in regards to the LUK/sachs difference, i simply do not know if the design shown in the youtube film is the one used in replacement DMF's for the T5. i just hope so as it seems a better design.
 
i had no choice in what was fitted and only came across the sachs film after the event but am of the opinion that anything must be better than what was was originally fitted.
 
can i recommend that you start a new thread with your van problems as you might find a lot of usefull and helpfull advise comes you way in respect of the fact you've just had the van and it broke the very next day. you may not need to worry about the cost of repair after all.
 
and get the beers in.
 
smidsy
 
I am a little worried that the fly wheel is just spining and hope that the end of the crank had not broken! After some calling around for prices i have now taken in to a main dealer that has quoted £750 +vat for a new fly wheel and clutch inc all the new bolts needed etc and all the labour for fitting, which is very cheap and why they now have it, mainly cause of the 2 year warrenty on the parts. I am just dreading the call to say it needed more than just clutch and fly wheel! The van was from a private seller so i have no comeback on it.
 
If i get time today i will start a new post with more details of what happended.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 16 at 07:59
Does anyone know of a solid flywheel conversion for a 2,5TDi 174hp 4-motion?
Mine has lost all drive to the wheels so I guess it is the flywheel and/or clutch.
Gears can be changed with no clutch even if the engine is running.
/Maggy, The (Male) Swede

T5 Caravelle 2,5 TDI AXE LWB 174hp (210hp)LWB 4motion -07

BMW K1600GTLE -16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Apr 16 at 08:39
First Dmf went at 35ish, this was replaced under warranty but left a pressure plate bolt in the bell housing 65ish and this destroyed the flywheel, pressure plate, friction plate, slave cylinder, hydraulic hose final bill£1500 inv vat. Now at 122 starting to slip, new flywheel, friction, pressure plate, bearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 08:44
Originally posted by Maggy Maggy wrote:

Does anyone know of a solid flywheel conversion for a 2,5TDi 174hp 4-motion?
Mine has lost all drive to the wheels so I guess it is the flywheel and/or clutch.
Gears can be changed with no clutch even if the engine is running.


I have heard reports a solid dmf damages gearbox and drive shafts because there in no soften of the delivery of the torque from the engine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gregozedobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr 16 at 12:08
I've read similar reports, IIRC it was the pulsations/vibrations of the power delivery that was causing the problem.  The springs in the DMF is supposed to smooth it out a bit.

Have you checked the splines between the gearbox and the driveshaft ?  This is a common failure on FWD T5s and if these go you end up with no drive at all (there is usually a fair bit of clonking and excessive play before they finally let go).  Just noticed you have a 4-motion, so Flywheel/clutch does seem more likely to be the source of your problems.


Edited by gregozedobe - 10 Apr 16 at 12:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunny43.5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 16 at 13:41
I would agree with Greg , check the drive shafts as Al has said the mongrels are made of toffee . My work van is a manual petrol 2.0 and DMF has be rooted for around 8 years . As someone above said the weight of the van seems to contribute to the failure , I tried to reverse up small incline all those years ago and it was a struggle as the van was shuddering and afterwards the dopey DMF shuddered every time you try to reverse up even the smallest of inclines . I changed the clutch plate and throw out bearing some years ago but never realised the stupid DMF thing was like that , I just assumed it was like the good old clutch plates with all those small spring around the inner core . As for the drive shaft splines mine was clunking when down shifting and when I would select reverse , I replaced it and the old one was close to shearing off look here to see the pics http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f136/2005-2-0-petrol-manual-t5-drive-train-spline-question-94796-2.html Oh and by the way that same DMF is still in there and the van is now at 290000 kms  One  last thing as mine is a petrol powered , I cannot see the logic in VW fitting one into an engine that does not throb like a diesel , maybe the bastards just got lazy and fitted them to all and sundry with no regards to actual needs . A solid one is on my shopping list .

Edited by sunny43.5 - 14 Apr 16 at 13:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alonline Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Apr 16 at 18:58
I have a drive shaft change down to 45 minutes from lifting on the jack to setting down. I think I should be on a ale Mans pit crew. The shaft splines are softer than toffee. It VW gives u the bird about support target their Twitter market Facebook page. They don't like negative feed back with repair costs and want u sorted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maggy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr 16 at 12:23
Got my Caravelle back about a week ago... 
DMF was fine. Pressure plate had ripped off its center!
So now it runs again.
/Maggy, The (Male) Swede

T5 Caravelle 2,5 TDI AXE LWB 174hp (210hp)LWB 4motion -07

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